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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
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14
Mistigri · 05/11/2016 04:38

I am disgusted by the Labour party position on this. Even my diehard Labour DH, who took a long time to come to his senses on Corbyn, now says he will never vote* for them again Shock.

*assuming May ever gets round to delivering on the manifesto promise to give us our votes back

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 05:27

From a Labour peer on Twitter:

In 24 hrs the Govt has lost in the High Court, lost its Brexit strategy & lost an MP. And throughout, Labour's leader has been invisible.

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 06:12

Great BTL comment from the FT website

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
ClashCityRocker · 05/11/2016 07:55

That's a point, what the bloody hell is JC up to?

Or is it just not hitting the papers?

whatwouldrondo · 05/11/2016 08:11

An opinion piece from earlier in October by the Conservative leave MP who has now resigned.It makes it very clear why he finally resigned yesterday www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/we-voted-brexit-keep-parliament-sovereign-wont-be-gagged

HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 08:11

This is the most you're going to get from JC this weekend, after a momentous week. Hardly going to fire anyone up to switch support to Labour, is it?

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37880603?client=safari

birdybirdywoofwoof · 05/11/2016 08:15

Support who?

What a mess this all is.

ClashCityRocker · 05/11/2016 08:27

It's so frustrating - I don't have strong political leanings towards a particular party, but the Tories are making such a pigs ear of things that it beggars believe that the opposition aren't using this to their full advantage.

And to a lesser extent, lib dems.

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 08:34

The only remotely positive thing about labour at the moment is that both Keri Starmer and Lisa nandy are getting out there and becoming known for sensibleness.

However I understand that the Times are reporting today that Teresa May will not criticise the language used by the tabloids because she agrees that the judges are enemies of the people out to thwart Brexit. How can we have a prime minister with so little knowledge and awareness of the constitution of this country.

whatwouldrondo · 05/11/2016 08:34

Thank you Red love the analogy, you could do similar with Lord of the Rings, hopefully Gandalf the grey is under one of those Supreme Court judge's wigs, he can certainly fence when necessary, and his sexuality is ambivalent...

However it also highlights just how ridiculous things are becoming as the FT comment highlights. Real life is not the clear cut one dimensional good versus evil, black and white narrative of a heroic saga, though the passion, overriding all logic and fact, with which some people on both sides are investing in Brexit suggests they think it is. Although that gives politicians and newspapers powerful emotions to exploit.

Somewhere in the complexity and shades of grey there is a solution that is best for the country that will result in the least harmful consequences for it's people, especially the most disadvantaged. What worries me is that can compromise ever put the genie back in the box. People have been inspired by these heroic calls to the cause even though they may not be sure,or misled about what it actually is, or in a darker interpretation been defined into tribes, and it will be hard to return to muddy waters of compromise........

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 08:43

The only remotely positive thing about labour at the moment is that both Keri Starmer and Lisa nandy are getting out there and becoming known for sensibleness.

However I understand that the Times are reporting today that Teresa May will not criticise the language used by the tabloids because she agrees that the judges are enemies of the people out to thwart Brexit. How can we have a prime minister with so little knowledge and awareness of the constitution of this country.

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 08:44

Sorry - it said it hadn't posted.

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 08:48

I think there can be compromise. At the moment there are smallish numbers of people on both sides who are really angry and very loud, with a much larger group in the middle who didn't intend or particular feel strongly either way (or did briefly in June) but now just want a sensible solution which works for the country - very much as the FT comment says but from both sides.

This group should be the one the politicians are trying to work with, but the tories seem set on appeasing the vicious and vociferous out group in their own party who are closer to the UKIP 18% of the population rather than the 50% ish moderate of all parties. I don't understand why!!

MagikarpetRide · 05/11/2016 09:25

I agree unicorn. The politicians should be thinking about whats best for the country even if that means upsetting the louder voices on both sides. That's what made the high court ruling so important in my eyes. I just hope our politicians come through now

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 09:25

This group should be the one the politicians are trying to work with, but the tories seem set on appeasing the vicious and vociferous out group in their own party who are closer to the UKIP 18% of the population rather than the 50% ish moderate of all parties. I don't understand why!!

I so agree. There are a lot of moderate Conservatives out there who are extremely unhappy about her appeasement (and yes, I have repeated the word deliberately) but don't know what to do. I for one, welcome Stephen Phillips resignation. I think it's even stronger coming from a Leave person - it can't be dismissed as being just sour grapes. I wish a few more would have the guts to stand by their principles.

So more than for months on where are we? A timeline of events:
Cameron instigates a badly thought out Referendum to silence his right wing. He doesn't do his homework and he loses and b*ggers off as fast as his legs will carry him.
Most people agree that the Leave campaign won on three promises - supporting the NHS, taking back sovereignity, and anti-immigration.
The result unleashes a torrent of xenophobia and racism, the Tory party Conference fans the flames.
Then Theresa May decrees that there is no more money for the NHS whilst delivering a little homily about the Home Office had to live within its budget. The Leavers say, Oh right, well, we didn't believe the £350 million a week promise anyway.
Then TM is virtually snubbed at an EU dinner, given 5 minutes to speak at a time when everyone just wants to get home and get to bed.
A court case says that the due process of law, which is Parliamentary democracy must be followed. This is the sovereignity we wanted to get back. Here the Leave camp splits - with some saying good, that's the right decision - Leaving must be seen to be done correctly, while another part starts screaming that it's not fair - we want Brexit and we want it now, even though we don't know what it is.
A Tory MP resigns on principle, because he doesn't like the right wing turn of the Conservative party......

Meanwhile - little side shows are going on - Zak Goldsmith resigns his seat, on genuinely held anti-Heathrow expansion principles, but the party he resigns from, in blatant cynicism, won't put up a candidate in case they lose. UKIP won't or can't, because the can't afford another lost deposit and are too busy fighting amongst themselves.

Another big side-show goes on across the Atlantic - do we get a madman elected in the White house or the first woman President, who although not mad, doesn't seem to inspire.....

And on.....

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 09:33

In my experience the vast vast majority of remainers just want the sort of compromise that they can live with - which would probably be some version of EEA. I think this would also be acceptable to most thinking leavers, as well as to the many many people who don't really care that much either way - but it will never satisfy the sort of people who think it's ok to abuse people for speaking a foreign language in public, or who are prepared to defend attacks on the rule of law in their pursuit of ideologically pure Brexit.

What bothers me a bit is that I don't have a handle on how big that last group is - I'd make a stab at maybe 25% of the electorate (made up of 15% kippers plus another 10% who are wedded to the idea of brexit at literally any price - split roughly half and half between labour and tory leavers) - but I could be completely wrong.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 10:26

However I understand that the Times are reporting today that Teresa May will not criticise the language used by the tabloids because she agrees that the judges are enemies of the people out to thwart Brexit. How can we have a prime minister with so little knowledge and awareness of the constitution of this country.

You have to suspect that May's ego comes in here. How many high court judgments has she lost against an action she has taken and proved to be frankly incompetent. Its the courts that have prevented her from getting her own way several times.

She is not blaming the law which politicians make for not serving her. Its the courts.

The trouble with the law is it is always subject to the rule of unintended consequences and how it has to be applied without prejudice to all. And it is open to interpretation - particularly if the original law was poorly worded in the first place and not narrow enough in what its pure intension and thought process behind it was.

So if you are someone with prejudice and someone who has trouble with not seeing potential unintended consequences because you are incompetent and short sighted because you have a narrow vision of the world then this is always going to be your downfall.

Lets face it, May's beef with the courts, is simple. Its personal. Because she takes their judgements that go against her as personal slights as she's too damn arrogant to look at how she is responsible or question her own ability.

Even the fact that No 10 has given Jeremy Wright a roasting for 'cocking up' the case says it all. It was never a foregone conclusion that the government would win, and she assumed and planned that it would be.

Anyway this is the fall out from case from a legal point of view:

Possible angles for the government appeal

www.headoflegal.com/2016/11/04/why-the-high-court-got-the-law-wrong-about-brexit/
Why the High Court got the law wrong about Brexit

judicialpowerproject.org.uk/high-court-miller-judgment-expert-reactions/
Miller: Expert Reactions

A range of critiques of the judgement and its fall out. It has a few quotes and link to a fuller range of opinions on a 13 page pdf. These are from different people and are relatively easy short reads. All are sensible and level headed responses even if they think the judgement is flawed.

On the media reaction
publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/11/05/courts-democracy-and-brexit-some-home-truths/
Courts, democracy and Brexit: Some hometruths
Blog by Mark Elliott

barristerblogger.com/2016/11/04/attacks-article-50-judges-disgrace/
Attacks on the Article 50 judges are a disgrace

On Liz Truss and how much confidence the law has in her to protect the courts
thesecretbarrister.com/2016/11/04/liz-truss-is-unfit-for-office-and-should-resign/
Liz Truss is unfit for office and shouldresign

This is on the end of the spectrum of this reaction, but its a view that is shared to a lesser extent by a great many in the profession. This is not a good thing. They should have confidence in the Lord Chancellor.

Belfast v London? A50
theconversation.com/a-ruling-in-belfast-makes-the-high-courts-brexit-decision-even-more-complicated-than-you-think-68247
A ruling in Belfast makes the high court’s Brexit decision even more complicated than youthink

The police are now investigating 93 online threats to judges. I suppose this might keep the courts busy and educate these people on how democracy works...

There are also rumours that the co-op might pull out of advertising in the Mail. No idea if this is legimate but interesting to see.

Away from a50 there is this article about labour shortages:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9ba567d6-a2c8-11e6-aca7-d9d4fe48eef4
Beating Brexit: Bosses fear exodus of key staff
Businesses are pressing the government to act before industries are left facing skills crisis

This includes farmers saying they are going to have to apply for visas for unskilled workers from outside the EU because otherwise their crops will rot because there is now not enough labour from within the EU.

If this carries on and becomes a real issue, it makes a mockery of all the demands against FoM in principle. Do you think the EU will make a concession about FoM when it sees us handing out visas left right and centre to non-Eu nationals?! Its not as if we could justify our position as being for British nationals then is it?

General Election
Two articles. Both from the Telegraph
www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ministers-preparing-for-early-general-election-after-tory-mp-quits-over-brexit/ar-AAjV60G?li=BBrN4i3&ocid=spartandhp
Ministers preparing for early general election after Tory MP quits over Brexit

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/anti-brexit-parties-would-win-150-fewer-seats-than-pro-leave-par/
Anti-Brexit parties would win 150 fewer seats than pro-Leave parties at a general election, analysis suggests

This article says that:
With Labour trailing the Conservatives by a large margin in recent polling, the prospect of an early general election has raised the possibility that a pro-EU party or a progressive alliance could have a chance of stopping Brexit.

However this is an interesting point:

Brexit Watch ‏@BrexitWatch

with Tories/Labour both pro-Leave, the LibDems can deprive Tories of majority

Its one I tend to agree with. What is key, is what happens in the North and Midlands. If Labour can hang on to their seats there and the Conservatives fail to make and more gains then they ARE at risk of swings to the Lib Dems elsewhere. Particularly in the South West.

edition.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.051116/data/7397486/index.html
Clegg looks to delay May’s plans and secure soft Brexit

May might be way ahead in the polls, but this is not what is important. Its how this plays out in constituencies and where those voters actually are.

The Lib Dems can not win a majority. Labour can not win a majority. BUT the polarising effect with Corbyn not particularly liked plays more to the Lib Dems benefit than to the Tories because of the huge majorities in the North. Corbyn is still very popular in London. So a pro-Brexit / pro-Corbyn platform protects the north and south. I have to say, under the circumstances it possibly is the best approach for them for that reason. And they have to hope that the Conservatives themselves are so divided that an early GE happens. (see first torygraph article above).

I'm not sure I am convinced by the idea that the Conservatives can increase their majority if Labour do stick with supporting Brexit. In theory in an early GE scenario, Labour just need to hold ground rather than gain any.

If the Conservatives have huge majorities in parts of the country but not elsewhere then a lot of this polling advantage is effectively 'wasted'.

I really think an election is massively unpredictable. Especially in the event of a low turnout. In theory it could end up increasing the Tory majority. It could also result in a hung parliament too though. I do not see it possible for the Lib Dems to enter into coalition with the Conservatives a second time around though. Their positions have become too polarised along liberal v authoritarian lines (now more important than left v right).

I am willing to bet that part of the reason that May is not seeking to calm the debate over the a50 stuff is she wants to inflame things. Why? Well just look above. Your reason is right there. They want to stir up certain groups to vote a certain way at a GE.

What do the Tories fear most at a GE?

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/brexit-means-defending-laws-courts-brexiteers-accept/
Brexit means defending our laws and our courts. Brexiteers ought to accept that

From the Spectator Editor.

But perhaps May has once again over cooked it. The backlash might be too much for those 'softer' tories who read the likes of the spectator. The courts - and democracy - are even more important than Brexit to some.

I would love to see the data being pushed about at LD, Tory, Labour and UKIP HQ on a constituency basis.

Thornbury and Yate, North Somerset, Bristol North West, Bath, Wiltshire North, Chippenham, Salisbury, Wells, Somerton and Frome, Taunton Deane, Stroud, Cheltenham, Tewkesbury, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, The Cotswolds, North Dorset, Central Devon, Totnes, Truro and Falmouth & West Dorset are all places I'd be nervous of as a Tory.

EU Marginal Leave or Remain area. Strong LD support locally / historically. Its not many - 20 - but its potentially enough. (I wouldn't expect UKIP to stand candidates in any of these at GE for this reason and it will be interesting to see if they do that too).

If you are in the SW and there is an early GE, expect to become very popular...

OP posts:
Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 10:41

Thanks red.

The role of the Lord Chancellor is precisely why there was an outcry when Cameron first appointed Chris grayling (the first time it was a non lawyer). It had always been treated as a job which should bd held by a lawyer as they do understand the constitutional role of the judiciary and it was historically the role for overseeing the pm. This unfortunately wasn't enshrined in legislation as I think it was assumed it would always happen.

Now it's become a minor cabinet post held by someone who has no clue about the law and who can't stand up to an over powerful executive.

I'd certainly add oxford west to the list of vulnerable seats.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 10:41

Also worth pointing out link between farming and the SW and one group who has most to loose in Brexit being farmers.

So if they are facing labour shortages, no reassurance about the rebate...

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 10:50

Jerry Hayes @jerryhayes1
I am beginning to understand why Stephen Phillips has resigned. May must stop the rule of the mob. We don't govern by pitchfork and noose.

I am beginning to feel uncomfortable about being a Tory at the moment

Barrister and former Tory MP.

Sean Jones ‏@seanjonesqc
Can we expect LC [Lord Chancellor - Liz Truss] to stand up for judges in public asks @ffgqc . SG will "pass on concerns"

#barcouncil @RobertBuckland says unhelpful for Govt to provide running commentary on press "tittle-tattle". Extraordinary.

Will Liz Truss make a statement? @robertbuckland puts it as high as "maybe" #barcouncil

#wheresLizTruss trending in UK!

OP posts:
HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 10:52

If there's an early GE, the Tories will have to put in their manifesto that they will exit the EU (and maybe even the SM), so Tory voters who are pro-Remain would have to make a decision/ compromise.

HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 10:53

What's the percentage of Tory Remain voters?

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 11:22

Something like 35-40% of Tories voted remain, and I would be prepared to bet that many of their leave voters did not have a hard brexit in mind.

Like most professional people working in large companies, I know a lot of Tory voters; most voted remain, and to my knowledge, not one of them would support a hard brexit.

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 11:24

I would add Oxford West and Abingdon to the list too, and possibly Newbury.

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 12:19

Also NE Herts where a lot of professionals working in the Cambridge area live. Only 3k tory majority and this was a remain voting area.