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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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jaws5 · 05/11/2016 12:22

So TM amd now Liz Truss have to be reminded to do their job, while Corbyn becomes increasingly irrelevant. Right.... www.theguardian.com/law/2016/nov/05/barristers-urge-liz-truss-to-condemn-attacks-on-brexit-ruling-judges

TheNorthRemembers · 05/11/2016 12:33

Re: Corbyn. John Crace in the Guardian wondered last week if Corbyn really refuses to read current news - resulting in totally left-field PMQs. Osborne also agreed with that in his Spectator stand-up routine.

May's attitude to courts is very disappointing. And my expectations are low to start with.

TheNorthRemembers · 05/11/2016 12:38

An anti-Brexit movement may lose now, but it is all a question of timing. It also assumes that Corbyn would have a lead role, which would immediately haemorrhage anti-Brexit votes.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 13:04

Remain / Leave
Con - 31 / 61
LD - 68 / 32
UKIP - 5 / 95
Lab - 65 / 35
Green - 20 / 80

BUT having looked through the data on this a bit, there are areas which are WAY off this and the way they voted is way of this split.

Which suggests that if Brexit is high up people's concerns at the next GE then strange things are not just possible but likely.

Case in point:
Bath's Leave score is 32%.
If you split the voting down as people voted in the 2015 GE on the above party remain/leave split then you would expect the area to have had a Leave score of 55%. Even if you go on the 2010 GE result which is more sympathetic to the Lib Dems then you are still at 42%.

So there is a 10% gap here. It could be explained by a difference in turnout. Except in the case of Bath (which is why I picked it) the 2015 turnout was 77.5% and the Ref was 77.13% (the ref turnout is generally higher than the GE in most areas so this example is a bit unusual, but in ref was categorised by people who are not previously voters coming out for Leave which make this actually a good one to use as its more comparable)

If I had to put money on it I would say Ben Howlett is toast at the next GE btw

On the flip side
Hartlepool had a leave score of 69%. If I do the same as above, then the 2015 GE Leave score comes out as just 31%! The previous election the Conservative party did much better here and the Leave score would be 44%. This is still WAY down on the actual EU ref score.

The turnout explains some of it. The EU ref turnout was 65.5%. The 2015 and 2010 GE was about 56%. The difference equates to about 5400 votes. This would be enough to turn over LAB's majority for EITHER UKIP or CON without existing voters defecting from Lab, UKIP or Con. But here's the thing. If I assume that every one of those disaffected non-GE voters is a UKIP supporter, I'd STILL only get a EU ref score of 37% (on 2015 GE figures) or 50% (on 2010 GE figures).

Which means there was a substantially higher number of Labour voters who went LEAVE than the national average. Substantially higher.

Hartlepool is at the top end of this type of example and seems to be the most extreme one I've found so far (I'm not wholly unsurprised).

I would expect it to turn UKIP at the next GE tbh, even with a turnout that does not match either the EU ref or the previous GE. I don't think it will go Conservative, as I think this Labour vote is far more likely to identify with UKIP (yes Question Time is definitely playing into my thoughts here). This would require a 7.7% swing to UKIP which although classifies it as a marginal seat is not a small swing.

Sorry Iain Wright you're toast too

The other NE Labour most marginal constituencies are Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Bishop Auckland and Darlington.

Middlesbrough had an EU ref leave score of 65%. The GE score was 56%. Could be vulnerable seat for Labour.

Bishop Auckland had an EU ref leave score of 60.6%. The GE score was 52%. Again could be another vulnerable seat for Labour.

Darlington is vulnerable to CON but not UKIP. (EU score 58% - GE score 67% which is actually higher). I'd expect the Cons to actually fair worse, thus protecting Lab.

But on the whole Labour is far less vulnerable than seems to have been stated imho.

I'm still working through all the data, (long way to go) but its throwing up some interesting trends and some interesting potential possibilities.

I think that its all going to be down to turnout out really. Which means for the Tories, stirring up Leave voters in key seats to turn out like they did in the last GE. Which is essentially means more of the same campaigning (basically stir the immigration pot) I'm afraid and vilify the enemy of the liberals.

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RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 13:10

gah. need to redo my maths. base scores incorrect.

Ignore last post. Though it should give you an idea of where its headed.

Will update in a bit with the correct numbers.

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Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 13:19

Although the cons do need to be slightly concerned because as we saw in Witney, affluent small c conservative voters get turned off by that sort of government approach and stay at home even if they don't actually switch.

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 13:25

It's assumed that UKIP will take votes from Labour in the North and Midlands, plus Kent and Essex. Except that UKIP is now really only Nigel Farage. I question how long they will survive in their present form. All we have to go on so far is by election results, and on the whole these haven't favoured UKIP. One test will be how the Sleaford and North Hykeham by election goes. You would expect the Tories to field a right wing Leave placeman candidate.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 13:30

Try again. Spectacular Brain Fart above.

Same post with correct percentage splits (it doesn't change too much to be fair, some figures are actually the same).

From the Lord Ashcroft split

Remain / Leave
Con - 42 / 58
LD - 70 / 30
UKIP - 5 / 96
Lab - 63 / 37
Green - 75 / 25

BUT having looked through the data on this a bit, there are areas which are WAY off this and the way they voted is way of this split.

Which suggests that if Brexit is high up people's concerns at the next GE then strange things are not just possible but likely.

Case in point:
Bath's Leave score is 32%.
If you split the voting down as people voted in the 2015 GE on the above party remain/leave split then you would expect the area to have had a Leave score of 54%. Even if you go on the 2010 GE result which is more sympathetic to the Lib Dems then you are still at 40%.

So there is a 10% gap here. It could be explained by a difference in turnout. Except in the case of Bath (which is why I picked it) the 2015 turnout was 77.5% and the Ref was 77.13% (the ref turnout is generally higher than the GE in most areas so this example is a bit unusual, but in ref was categorised by people who are not previously voters coming out for Leave which make this actually a good one to use as its more comparable)

If I had to put money on it I would say Ben Howlett is toast at the next GE btw

On the flip side
Hartlepool had a leave score of 69%. If I do the same as above, then the 2015 GE Leave score comes out as just 31%! The previous election the Conservative party did much better here and the Leave score would be 44%. This is still WAY down on the actual EU ref score.

The turnout explains some of it. The EU ref turnout was 65.5%. The 2015 and 2010 GE was about 56%. The difference equates to about 5400 votes. This would be enough to turn over LAB's majority for EITHER UKIP or CON without existing voters defecting from Lab, UKIP or Con. But here's the thing. If I assume that every one of those disaffected non-GE voters is a UKIP supporter, I'd STILL only get a EU ref score of 37% (on 2015 GE figures) or 50% (on 2010 GE figures).

Which means there was a substantially higher number of Labour voters who went LEAVE than the national average. Substantially higher.

Hartlepool is at the top end of this type of example and seems to be the most extreme one I've found so far (I'm not wholly unsurprised).

I would expect it to turn UKIP at the next GE tbh, even with a turnout that does not match either the EU ref or the previous GE. I don't think it will go Conservative, as I think this Labour vote is far more likely to identify with UKIP (yes Question Time is definitely playing into my thoughts here). This would require a 7.7% swing to UKIP which although classifies it as a marginal seat is not a small swing.

How big the swing is, is definitely dependent on the turnout though, and that is likely to rest on how important Brexit is in the next GE.

Sorry Iain Wright you're toast too

The other NE Labour most marginal constituencies are Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Bishop Auckland and Darlington.

Middlesbrough had an EU ref leave score of 65%. The GE score was 57%. Could be vulnerable seat for Labour.

Bishop Auckland had an EU ref leave score of 60.6%. The GE score was 52%. Again could be another vulnerable seat for Labour.

Darlington is vulnerable to CON but not UKIP. (EU score 58% - GE score 67% which is actually higher). I'd expect the Cons to actually fair worse, thus protecting Lab.

But on the whole Labour is far less vulnerable than seems to have been stated imho.

I'm still working through all the data, (long way to go) but its throwing up some interesting trends and some interesting potential possibilities.

I think that its all going to be down to turnout out really. Which means for the Tories, stirring up Leave voters in key seats to turn out like they did in the last GE. Which is essentially means more of the same campaigning (basically stir the immigration pot) I'm afraid and vilify the enemy of the liberals.

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BoredofBrexit · 05/11/2016 14:06

I'd imagine by 2020 much of that will be irrelevant.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 14:14

Thanks red, that's really interesting!

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 14:25

Sleaford and North Hykeham:

EU Ref Leave Vote: 61%
EU Ref Turnout (North Kesteven) 78.40%
Expected Leave vote based on 2015 Vote: 54%
2015 GE Turnout out: 70.20%
(roughly 6800 extra voters at EU ref who, if you go by the above figures appear likely to almost all be leave. Score comes to 63% if you count them all as kippers).

GE result
Con - Stephen Philips 34805 (56.19%) +4.59%
Lab - Jason Pandya-Wood 10690 (17.26%) +0.37%
UKIP - Steven Hopkins - 9716 (14.02%) +10.53%
LD - Matthew Holden - 3500 (5.65%) -12.52%

My feeling is this by-election perhaps isn't going to say a huge amount. The turnout is going to be down - its going to be most likely in January, its a by-election and there isn't much to gain/prove for anyone as there is no chance of anyone else taking the seat.

I do think that the LDs should reclaim some of that 12% lost. They have the potential to get into second place again (as they did in 2010 with 10814 votes) but I don't expect a shift as big as this here.

Labour have stalled in this constituency. They had 10690 votes in 2015 (17.26%) and 10051 in 2010 (16.90%). I expect it to head south. How much is important. It looks like a fairly stable core Labour vote in the area following high of 18000 in 1997 at Labour's peak. No idea who will benefit.

Then the thing to watch is really where the UKIP goes. Can they be bothered anymore. Has UKIP lost its relevance here? Have they peaked? I think perhaps so. I don't think it will go up. Far more likely to go down. But by how much? And will the Conservatives benefit?

If the Conservative share of the vote goes down, even by a relatively small amount I would take it as something of a poor result for the Tories as a) existing voters haven't come out b) they aren't getting UKIP share they want c) they are potentially loosing voters to the LDs d) the shift in the national polls isn't helping much and suggesting they aren't taking a slice of the Labour vote even with Corbyn's assistance e) they are not picking up any of that 'disaffected' non-GE vote from the referendum

There is everything to suggest Conservative vote share theoretically should go up by a small amount.

This is a safe Tory seat, which had a Leave Voter in a Leave area. There really should be nothing to see here. IF there is, its noteworthy imho.

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RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 14:30

BoredofBrexit Sat 05-Nov-16 14:06:47
I'd imagine by 2020 much of that will be irrelevant.

Voter turnout always remains relevant. Satisfaction with Brexit will be very relevant - it either will have happened or we will be in the throws of it still.

Its interesting in itself that a Leaver feels that way. I wonder, if this is a shared view and whether current Remains also agree.

If that's not the case, then its relevant.

Besides. As you know, 2020 is up for debate.

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Peregrina · 05/11/2016 14:37

I would be surprised if Sleaford got more Lib Dem votes. I could see Labour picking up more if they put up a Leave candidate. I would expect the Tories to win, but with a reduced majority, as the 'one nation' Tories stayed at home, but were a bit stumped as to who else they could vote for. Unless a genuine Independent came along, promoting a Local issue.

ClashCityRocker · 05/11/2016 14:47

Are the constituency boundaries changing? Do we know what they are changing to?

I live in York, and york central is strong labour with York outer being Tory - a really strong lead in the last GE but less so in 2010...think it was lib dems prior to that.

So it would be interesting to see what happens there. York as a whole was one of the few remain areas in the north. The Tory mp was a leaver.

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 15:02

Maybe York should be added to Red's list of places which might go LibDem.

GloriaGaynor · 05/11/2016 15:07

I think the boundaries are changing in time for the 2020 election.

Tories claim they will gain an extra 25 seats.

GloriaGaynor · 05/11/2016 15:08

Although there are fewer in number overall.

SapphireStrange · 05/11/2016 15:18

Just marking place for now. Thanks again Red!

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 15:21

Just as an aside - assuming we had a proper Coalition like the Wartime one to get us out of this mess, who would you put forward for key roles?

I would potentially keep Hammond although he's not delivered a budget yet, so is a bit of an unknown quantity.
I would keep Clegg for an EU facing role.
Keir Starmer and Lisa Nandy.
Unbelievably, I think I might put Gove back at the Ministry of Justice, because I thought he was doing a decent enough job there.
I don't know who I would put forward for PM - it needs to be a reconciler and someone who is flexible enough, but not so flexible that they come across as wishy-washy.

I don't know what I would do with May or Leasdom, and wouldn't offer anything to the three Brexit stooges.

HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 15:29

I agree with you Peregrina about almost everyone, but not Gove! Sorry, just no!

And the leader has to be someone very wise. Someone who can think of a way to unite and soothe a damaged and divided country. I don't know who could do that.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 15:34

Richmond Park is the one though...

EU Ref Leave Vote: 27%
EU Ref Turnout: 82.09%
GE 2015 Converted Leave Vote: 46%
GE Turnout 76.5%

The General Election Vote is too high in terms of its converted leave Vote by 19%! And 19% is a VERY significant number.

It looks like the high Conservative vote is very out of step with the national Brexit vote here. Not only that but look at the turnout. If all those extra people voted to Leave, then that means the regular voters were even more likely to vote Remain OR people who don't normally vote came out to vote to Remain en masse (or a bit of both). Either way, feeling to Remain is likely to be even stronger than the EU figure might even suggest.

Therefore Brexit is a BIG issue here. The 2015 result really isn't reflective of the referendum result.

Even looking at the result for 2010, that's still 45%. This is when the LD got 42.8% of the vote (25370 votes) to the Conservatives 49.7% (29461).

In 2015 the LDs lost 23.54% of the vote. They need just over 19% to take the seat. Just over 19% was what they got in Witney...

2015 Result
Con - Zac Goldsmith 34404 (58.21%) +8.5%
LD - Robin Meltzer 11389 (19.27%) -23.54%
Lab - Sachin Patel - 7296 (12.34%) +7.32%
Green - Andree Frieze - 3548 (6%) +5.04%
UKIP - Sam Naz - 2464 (3%)

We have here roughly 4000 extra people who voted in the EU referendum. They could be in either camp and they might not vote.
We have another 3548 Green voters and another 2464 UKIP votes up for grabs due to both parties not standing candidates.
It makes it so unpredictable.

Using the Ashcroft split to put UKIP, Con, LD and Green voters (and leaving out Labour) in Remain / Leave camps you get:

Remain
25181

Leave
26623

This is before somehow adding in that extra 19% bias.

Of course this is very very speculative, and just based on numbers. There are lots of Conservative voters who will stay with Goldsmith regardless and there are lots of voters who will simply stay at home as is the case with by-elections (Witney turnout was 46% compared with 73% at the general). And there is no knowing what the 4000 extra Referendum voters might do. Never mind those Labour voters.

But you start to see just how close it really could be and just if Brexit really is important to voters as a motivation and get out and vote, then the patterns do definitely allow for a Lib Dem victory.

Its close. Very close. I'm not in the slightest bit surprised by the betting odds.

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Peregrina · 05/11/2016 15:49

Add to that Red that both LD and Goldsmith are standing on an anti-Heathrow ticket, so it's almost certainly going to be a pro/anti Brexit election.

Wonder what May would do if LD won? If Goldsmith won again, it's easy - he made his point, wait a decent interval and then rejoice at the return of the prodigal son.

Mistigri · 05/11/2016 16:49

To add to this interesting discussion, it's worth bearing in mind also that a GE = a manifesto, and hence a coherent position on brexit. As I said on the other thread, a hard brexit manifesto will alienate many Tory MPs (the one nation tories, the intellectuals like Grieve and Tyrie, and some of the business types) as well as putting at risk votes from the Tories' younger, professional, often educated supporters - many of whom will have voted to remain. (I would note here that, in the division of the FTSE 100 company where I work, most of my colleagues are both Tory voters AND strong remain voters. I think most would struggle to vote for a Tory party intent on removing us from the single market - they would probably be OK with the EEA.)

OTOH, a soft brexit manifesto will enrage the Tory right and will lose May the kipper vote.

Not easy to square this circle. I would not bet on an early election.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 16:59

mistigri but TM may have no choice but to call an early GE, so I'd love to know what's happening within Labour. Ok, in Corbyn's head, not much - all he's done in the last 24 crucial hours has been to ask TM for clarity on Brexit (couldn't he stretch himself a bit more there?) and promise to punish "unpatriotic" tax evaders if PM (irrelevant right now). But, I'd love to eavesdrop into the conversations between prominent Labour figures, they must have a plan of some sort? Total mystery, really.