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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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TheBathroomSink · 11/11/2016 16:11

Corbyn seems to be taking the same approach to this as he does to everything i.e not his problem:

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 1h1 hour ago
Corbyn spokesman says application for readmission by P Taaffe & 75 expelled. Militant members is a matter for the National Executive not him

It isn't exactly how you would define 'leadership', is it?

lalalonglegs · 11/11/2016 16:15

So, Corbyn doesn't even have an opinion on it? It's all down to the NEC Hmm. He really is spineless.

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 16:16

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/barack-obama-permanently-protects-womens-right-to-abortion-planned-parenthood-donald-trump-a7411401.html
Barack Obama moves to protect funding for abortion clinics from attack by Donald Trump’s Republicans

Services under the ‘Title X’programme, which provides basic preventative healthcare for four million low-income earners in the US, would no longer be able to be withdrawn on political grounds

The Independent are calling this Obama's Last Stand

It may not be enough, but yeah...

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Peregrina · 11/11/2016 16:21

Won't the Trumpites just change the Law?

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 16:27

Probably. But it'll be a pain in the ass and take time.

It will at least make the difference for some.

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RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 17:03

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue
Article 50 notice could be reversed, government may argue in Brexit case

Rumour has hit the newspapers.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
I've heard this pondered too - BUT we then could well get a referral to European Court of Justice = A50 delay...

[So before or after France Elections in April/May? Awkward. But also especially if Le Pen gets in, might change the political landscape hugely too. Would be tactically wise to delay until after as chances of a Le Pen victory seem to have increased]

2/5 Article 50's reversibility is a question of EU law, hasn't been tested before; an invitation for Supreme Court to refer to Luxembourg
3/5 as it happened, Donald Tusk told me that it was up to the UK as to whether Article 50 was reversible - i.e. Politically reversible
4/5 But this would be a complete change of the legal argument between High Court and Appeal - looks terrible, in terms of putting a case

[Looks terrible if they loose too though, given May's insistence on pursuing case]

5/5 If Govt argues A50 reversible, that defeats argument rights are inevitable destroyed. So win in SC, but negotiation becomes conditional

Phillip Watson @PhillWatson1970
@faisalislam surely if they base on A50 reversibility then it opens door on appeal to Europe as the decision would be on EU law not U.K law

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Yes, new parties to case, now incl Scottish Government could insist on a referral to ECJ. That's why I said this:

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 18th October 2016
10/10 Not impossible SC could refer aspects to ECJ. This would appear to be constitutional equivalent of breaking the space-time continuum

[Oh so Scotland might request a referral? Ouch!]

Just Alan @brightton_alan
@faisalislam once a negotiated settlement is established, parliament would always have to approve it surely?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
If Govt tells SC A50 is reversible, means rights not inevitably destroyed, so Parliament must approve final deal. But what's fallback?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
..IF Govt tells Supreme Court A50 reversible, its for sole purpose of saying EU rights not inevitably removed. Gives Parliament end veto 1/2

[what a lot of the MPs pushing for an amendment should a50 hit parliament want]

...and fallback option for PArliament will not be WTO option hard/clean Brexit, as it also removes rights, it will have to be retaining them

[looks like could be potentially backing away from the cliff face]

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RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 17:19

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/gary-lineker-walkers-the-sun_uk_5825e603e4b0e18d11a520df?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001
Gary Lineker Says He Is Talking To Walkers Crisps About Advertising In The Sun

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TuckersBadLuck · 11/11/2016 17:29

I've been thinking about the consequences of it being ruled that Article 50 can be reversed.

2 years down the line wouldn't we be in exactly the same situation as we are now, i.e. requiring Parliament to ratify the decision before it became final, except that we'd have half a clue what the deal is? Is there any downside to that?

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 17:38

2 years down the line wouldn't we be in exactly the same situation as we are now, i.e. requiring Parliament to ratify the decision before it became final, except that we'd have half a clue what the deal is? Is there any downside to that?

Yeah the deal might be shit and could be rejected. Increases the incentive for the government to get a workable and attractive deal that is likely to be acceptable to everyone though.

Few will relish a 2020 without a deal though.

(reversible a50 I would suspect would decrease chances of a early GE).

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Unicornsarelovely · 11/11/2016 17:39

There's a huge problem with that from the freetrade buccaneer point of view that represents many of the Tory leavers, that if that really is what's on offer and there are no unicorns, the people will speak and say 'no Brexit'.

Not only will we be back in, we'll be all in for ever. That is such s risk to some people that's it outweighs the risk of throwing everything else away for nothing.

TuckersBadLuck · 11/11/2016 17:46

Yeah the deal might be shit and could be rejected.

That's not really a downside though is it? At this stage I can't think of any likely outcome which is much better than that. An excellent deal which ticked all the boxed would be better of course, complete with unicorns, but I said likely.

SwedishEdith · 11/11/2016 17:50

"I am not sure if he wishes to run again. He would be 74 in four years time."

Sarah Churchwell said on QT last night that he'll probably quit after 2 years. She was very good if you get a chance to watch it. In fact, it was 4 woman panel and a lot more respectful for it even though one voted Trump Shock

SwedishEdith · 11/11/2016 17:55

Gary Lineker is so impressive at the moment.

TheElementsSong · 11/11/2016 18:03

Article suggesting that the UK may suffer a brexodus of academics, experts, and other highly-skilled people (I have extensive anecdata which is in agreement with this):

www.timeshighereducation.com/comment/brexodus-worlds-highly-skilled-have-options-other-uk

If the social and political environment is hostile and the salary and benefits substandard, it is quite understandable that those possessing the skills the UK needs will simply choose the alternatives.

Peregrina · 11/11/2016 18:03

Few will relish a 2020 without a deal though.

Who are the few we are talking about? Politicians? Those Remainers who have stuck to their guns won't mind. Genuine Leavers will be throwing their toys out of the pram. As for the general public - how much will they care? If you look at these threads, they get moved to the Referendum topic because most people aren't all that bothered.

lalalonglegs · 11/11/2016 18:05

But Trump's health is "astonishingly excellent" according to his not paid to say these things at all doctor. Oh God, I've just had a horrible thought - what if he upduffs Melania to prove his virility and all round peak fitness..?

MagikarpetRide · 11/11/2016 18:06

Given the raft of populism at the moment and our complete lack of opposition, I reckon Gary Lineker could quickly form a party and win in the next GE. I bloody luffs him right now.

SwedishEdith · 11/11/2016 18:17

Agree, if we're moving towards populism, he could easily be influential in a progressive movement (doubt he'd want to give up his day job though).

Just checked, Melania is 46. Phew! Not beyond possibility, I know, but...

merrymouse · 11/11/2016 18:18

“There’s no question the wall is going to get built,” Kobach told KWCH. “The only question is how quickly will it get done and who pays for it.”

What is this wall going to be like though? How is it going to cope with big stretches of water and mountain ranges? Does Trump think 'natural features' will stop a hugely profitable smuggling industry? How is it going to stop people entering the country legally and just staying?

BoredofBrexit · 11/11/2016 18:19

Peregrina: exiting in 2020 - so, walking away without a deal - is diamond Brexit, harder than hard, surely?

lalalonglegs · 11/11/2016 18:20

Swedish - so the same age as Cherie Blair when she had Leo...

merrymouse · 11/11/2016 18:25

Few will relish a 2020 without a deal though.

peregrina I think these would be people needing to make long term plans - universities seeking funding, foreign investors, businesses involved in international trade.

BoredofBrexit · 11/11/2016 18:29

Re Brexodus - hope they are not thinking of USA then.

Figmentofmyimagination · 11/11/2016 18:31

I'm kind of hoping he does build the wall. It would be such a lasting monument to stupid fuckwittery.

whatwouldrondo · 11/11/2016 18:39

Who would bet on Trump lasting four years given the combined likelihood of scandal, cock-ups (not fertility related), legal problems be it impeachment or litigation, and health problems either physical (whatever his physician may say that waistline and anger threshold are risk factors) or psychological. I would actually bet on the latter alone emerging as a huge issue, he has narcissistic personality disorder, can't tolerate being crossed or criticised. That is without the likelihood of civil unrest........

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