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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 21:51

I would like to take credit for trawling that document but I copied and pasted that bit from the house of commons page which linked to the full document!

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SwedishEdith · 10/11/2016 21:52

Not sure this has been posted yet.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/11/10/the-waugh-zone-november-1_8_n_12892422.html

"Meanwhile, Trump is busy drafting his incoming White House team. Talk of private sector staffers replacing experienced Government officials will worry some. Just as worrying are reports that neocon John Bolton could be his Secretary of State and creationist Ben Carson his Education Secretary. We live in interesting times.."

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 21:52

Tuckers I think it needs amending to reflect the UK's current situation:

"There are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. And then there's Brexit

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Peregrina · 10/11/2016 21:54

So what "knowns" can we infer from the Briefing paper?

Rules out an EEA agreement, or EFTA agreement, so goodbye promise of commitment to single market. (Although I think they may decide that they have to compromise here if Norway, Iceland and Liechstenstein are amenable, as well as the other 27.) So how does that affect the Nissan deal, which as we have already seen is not quite so secure as TM would have us believe?

Can't say about Ireland/NI borders - I can't see them being happy with that state of affairs.

Nothing to reassure EU citizens here. Thanks for that.

I am not reassured by any of this. It's taken 4 and a half months to get this far, so how on earth do they think they are going to negotiate anything worthwhile within two years? Is Theresa May really so stubborn and inflexible that she would smash the economy, resting on the premise that the economy hadn't suffered too much until the beginning of October. But this is before Marmitegate, happened.

I hope it's giving May, Johnson, Fox, Davis and a few others some sleepless nights. I hope too that Gove, Gisela Stuart find that they have consciences and are busily trying to atone for their stupidity. As for Cameron - his complete loss of reputation is the best outcome for him. The man who 'thought he would be good at being PM' becomes one of the worst.

amaravatti · 10/11/2016 21:58

neocon John Bolton could be his Secretary of State and creationist Ben Carson his Education Secretary.
Yikes

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 21:59

But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."

We always laugh at this, but the reason why it keeps getting repeated is that Rumsfeld summed it up well.

In short TM's government hasn't got a Bl**dy clue. Johnson of course, sussed this out, the first weekend which he spent playing cricket.

amaravatti · 10/11/2016 22:01

www.channel4.com/news/jonathan-capeheart-and-lena-epstein-debate-trumps-america

Heart breaking interview with Washington post journalist on how he feels now to be American.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 22:11

This is EXACTLY what Gove wanted.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/10/london-based-banks-face-nightmarish-choices-after-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw
London-based banks face 'nightmarish' choices after Brexit

More on what the Japanese ambassador said to the EU Lords select committee

Removal of UK euro-clearing rights “is not something that would be welcomed at all by the financial service providers,” he said. “Companies have come a long way to establish the most efficient clearing house here in London. Now to be told to go elsewhere, it would be a huge challenge.” He added that no other city represented “a natural answer” as a substitute to London and it would be impossible for banks to discuss with each other where to relocate.

“It would be nightmarish if you think about the business decision they would be forced to make,” he said.

And something to ponder:
Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Brexiteers and Trump may soon find out the hard way that we are more in an era of Pre-Truth politics than Post-Truth politics.

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Peregrina · 10/11/2016 22:44

What exactly are pre-truth politics Confused?

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 22:48

All the bullshit that you spout before reality hits and you are exposed as not having a fucking clue when you do actually get into power.

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Peregrina · 10/11/2016 22:58

The Channel 4 extract was so upsetting - as John Snow said, humbling. How on earth could the Americans chose to vote in someone like Trump? It's beyond credulity.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 23:51

I'm starting to get idea that there was a huge amount of psychology going on.

For example: Saying the election was rigged - to one part of the electorate it says 'you've know it, you've faced difficulty voting because of the laws, what is the point in even trying' whilst to his supporters he's in effect saying 'get the vote out'.

Clinton spent millions on campaigning to get the vote out through phone banks. Trump just got everyone to do it by being so controversial everyone reported it and shared it on social media.

I'm sure it works on other things that he said.

If you think about it terms of double meanings and ways to reflect something back about the opposition, it does start to make more sense. It makes you Teflon, so when you do have a scandal it doesn't stick too.

Start thinking about everything he says being deliberate to mean one thing to part of the electorate and something else to another part.

Also start thinking about what Trump says as being an ultra exaggeration in a desperately polarised environment on a theme to get a message across purely through attracting attention. It forces you to say I'm either with you or against you.

The detail of what he says is therefore unimportant but the theme and underlying message rather than a literal message. (Though obviously some supporters will take him literally as that's a reflection of what they think). The approach plays into deep seated beliefs for his benefit.

Its about feelings not facts again.

It is of course a Pandora's box though and he has unleashed something that won't go back in the box.

Its not purely ignorant nonsense then but clever. Very clever. I'm sure the post-mortem on the campaign will in time show this up.

Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters
Trump team contacted JPMorgan's Dimon for Treasury role

Hitchin Oughton (North Hertfordshire) result:
LAB: 31.9% (-17.4)
IND: 24.8% (+24.8)
CON: 19.6% (-12.5)
LDEM: 18.6% (+9.9)
GRN: 5.2% (-4.8)
Lab hold

Queenstown (Wandsworth) result:
LAB: 53.3% (+14.3)
CON: 33.9% (-5.5)
LDEM: 8.6% (+3.3)
GRN: 4.2% (-4.7)
Lab hold

Southwater (Horsham) result:
CON: 66.2% (+30.4)
LDEM: 19.5% (+2.4)
LAB: 7.5% (-2.1)
UKIP: 6.9% (-8.3)
Con hold (look at ukip!)

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Motheroffourdragons · 10/11/2016 23:56

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Peregrina · 11/11/2016 00:00

From the election results, all I conclude is that UKIPers have gone back to the Tories or BlueKip.

TheBathroomSink · 11/11/2016 01:42

Eltham North has gone to the Conservatives.

merrymouse · 11/11/2016 06:37

How on earth could the Americans chose to vote in someone like Trump? It's beyond credulity.

Remember only about 25% of Americans actually voted for Trump and a lot of them professed to only be doing so because he was the least worst option.

Most people who voted chose HC.

I have also read that some people voted for Obama then Trump because both were charismatic outsiders offering hope. (Trump's charisma is a bit lost on me, but empirical evidence suggests it exists!)

I think a lot of Trump supporters were very engaged on social media and would be very able to tell you why they support Trump (although maybe not in a way that would make sense to us), but if you don't actively follow current affairs, where do you come across information now? Even in the UK, we don't listen to the radio or watch the news in the way that we did 10 years ago. Is it possible to lose an election just through being too boring? Not meme worthy enough?

It also appears that Trump was more popular in the group that earns over $250,000. For some it probably just came down to tax cuts.

MagikarpetRide · 11/11/2016 06:56

I'm seeing a lot of stuff now about reforming the EC. Its making me wonder a lot about what would have happened here if we had done down a PR route. If the last election could be taken as representative, it would have meant UKIP would have had a lot of MPs. I can't help thinking now that we may not have been in this mess if that had happened. They've never been a coherent group and wouldn't probably have needed much of a prod to collapse themselves totally or make themselves complete laughing stocks.

mathanxiety · 11/11/2016 06:58

Now that the dust has settled, the US really is holding its breath waiting for the announcements of cabinet positions.

I disagree with the Bradford-deLong article wrt Trump being susceptible to manipulation and also wrt potential for blackmail. He is very much a 'take my ball home' person imo so will pursue deals with anyone willing to sit across from the table with him, and also he's too shameless to be afraid of blackmail. I suspect he has an agenda. I am not sure if he wishes to run again. He would be 74 in four years time. So he will want to get it done in four years, and to heck with the GOP, whose fortunes in future elections will forever be linked to the success or failure of Trump as president.

Mistigri · 11/11/2016 07:16

I recommend everyone goes and reads @ShaunKing on Twitter. Brexit effect on steroids.

(Note that I think there is a good chance some of these incidents are faked or not directly election-related. But there are an awful lot of them, many in schools, many confirmed by the schools themselves).

TheNorthRemembers · 11/11/2016 07:52

Thank you for keeping me sane these days Flowers

If one good thing came out from the US election is that Teresa May has probably even less respect for Farage than before. And she totally blanked her before. I doubt that May would enjoy being objectified and her office demeaned by a creep.

jaws5 · 11/11/2016 08:00

I am guessing that's the case North, very humiliating for TM to see herself spoken of in those terms. Unbelievable what Farage said, even for his standards!

jaws5 · 11/11/2016 08:12

Some MPs 'ready to vote against triggering Brexit' Liberal Democrat, Labour and SDLP MPs have told the BBC they are prepared to vote against triggering Article 50.
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron said his party would oppose it, unless they were promised a second referendum on the UK's Brexit deal with EU leaders. Several Labour MPs are also willing to vote against it, despite the Labour Party pledging not to do so.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37944473.

jaws5 · 11/11/2016 08:19

Also, doesn't look like no. 10 intends to give Farage the glory he seeks -- I'm sure his groping joke didn't help, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37946420
They said Mr Farage, who campaigned for Mr Trump, was an "irrelevance".BBC political correspondent Iain Watson says Downing Street has been "hugely irritated" with the claim ministers were seeking the services of Mr Farage in forging links with the Trump administration."The story is politically important because Mrs May does not want to give UKIP an opportunity to bask in the 'reflected glory' of a Trump victory," he adds

weavingawickerbasket · 11/11/2016 09:51

Apparently US vice president-elect Mike Pence has called BJ to discuss our special relationship with the US.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37946420

BJ has a bit of a womaniser reputation, doesn't he, he will get along just fine with DT and friends. This is BJ's moment to shine and TM will let him to undermine NF.

I am worrying that whilst DT may not be able to inflict his crazy policies wrt Muslims and immigrants, the population group that will actually fall prey to this man will be women. Women will come out worse under his reign.

LurkingHusband · 11/11/2016 10:02

Here's a doozy.

Brexit, or not, seems the UK is going to be spending an awful lot of money with out (ex)-EU partners...

Now, I'm no expert, so what is other peoples thoughts on how this will be affected by Brexit ?

Because presumably, to keep the US happy, the UK is going to have to accept whatever T&Cs the US impose - and damn Brexit ????

So is this another area where the UK will find it's hands tied ? Because I suspect that any flow of money under this deal will have to be kept tariff-free ?

More to the point, how many other pan-EU deals are there like this, just waiting to snare the eager Brexiters ?

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/11/uk_f35s_heavy_overhaul_says_us/

Britain will have to send its supersonic F-35 fighter jets to Italy for heavy overhauls, the UK Ministry of Defence has confirmed to The Register.

BAE Systems will maintain an airframe maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade (MRO&U) capability at RAF Marham in Norfolk, according to a US announcement earlier this week.

However, that will only be used if Italy, the Americans' designated airframe overhaul point in Europe, is unable to cope with demand.

"The F-35 programme is based on a global support solution concept. This is the most cost effective way to deliver the F-35 support solution and is based on economies of scale," the MoD told The Register, adding: "The UK is establishing an F-35 airframe maintenance facility at RAF Marham to maintain UK aircraft. However, regional Airframe 'Heavy' MRO&U and Engine MRO&U will be undertaken in Italy and Turkey."

In Europe, F-35 heavy maintenance will be carried out by the UK for the aircraft's avionics, and as noted above, Italy for the airframes and Turkey for the jets' F135 engines.

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