To think this could mean the end of brexit?

[jdoe8]

Now MPs will be able to block it. Could this be the end of this ridiculous brexit? MPs can not vote for something that they think will not be in peoples interest and its very clear the people that voted to brexit would be the ones worse off.

JO'B is doing a fab job on LBC today and most brexiters seem to be happy that it might not go ahead as they were fooled by lies!

Something having constitutional significance or causing a constitutional crisis does not explain why you think that parliament not upholding a referendum vote (of 48/52 I might add) would result in an 'arguable' case that this was 'unconstitutional'. You are conflating a whole load of issues.

Many things can result in constitutional crises without being unconstitutional themselves.

So I ask again - what constitutional principle forms the basis of you argument that not following the result of a referendum would be unconstitutional?

Discrimination BTW is not a constitutional issue.

Human rights laws make discrimination illegal. Those laws originate in EU law which has been given effect by the U.K. Parliament. Obviously also in the equality act etc.

One of the reasons people argued to leave the EU was to abolish the HRA thus having the effect of discrimination not being illegal in the same was it was before.

Punishing homosexuality legally is not prevented by the constitution it is prevented by parliament and drawn from human rights (from Europe).

If we legislated to criminalise homosexuality and get rid of the equality act and HRA there would be nothing unconstitutional about that at all.

Coming out of Europe and getting rid of the HRA means we would be perfectly able, without any consequence, to start hanging criminals again, to sentence people to hard labour, to discriminate against people in work, housing etc

Constitutional principles like the rule of law relate to upholding the law but it is parliament that ultimately decides what the law is.

I mean coming out of Europe will create a constitutional crisis but I don't think you would argue that means coming out of Europe is arguably unconstitutional would you?

1. The consensus is now that matters such as leaving the EU are of constitutional importance and leaving the EU by act of parliament without a referendum is indeed unconstitutional. The reverse of this is that staying in against the decision of a referendum is therefore potentially unconstitutional. The principles behind this would be whether parliament is sovereign on its own or its is just borrowing the sovereignty of the people. This question has yet to be properly answered.

1. Parliament is notional sovereign but in practise that is only up to the point where what it does is acceptable to the people. Such principles are unwritten and evolve with time. I disagree with you that the parliament will be able to effect discriminatory legislation without the HRA. The poll tax was passed by the parliament but failed to take effect as the people would not have it. There are many more ancient laws that are completely ignored in modern times.

1. Of course if there is a 'constitutional crisis' then it is not 'clear cut' interpretation of the constitution. If it is clear cut and nearly everyone agrees then there is no crisis.

You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

You are doing this thing where you use the language of authority but in the substance of what you say it is clear you do not even have the most rudimentary understanding of the differences between the constitution, constitutional principles and constitutional law.

And whether people would obey a law is a totally different thing to whether a law is unconstitutional.

And again, re constitutional crises, leaving the EU will cause a constitutional crisis - that means leaving the EU is unconstitutional by your logic?

Of course it is not unconstitutional to leave the EU if that is what parliament decides to do, because parliament is sovereign. Parliament can do things which lead to constitutional crises, it can create laws that no-one will obey if it likes, it can create laws that are openly discriminatory or completely irrational or totally illegitimate if it likes. There are other checks and balances in the system to deal with those issues.

Good. At least we agree that parliament cannot in practise does as it pleases.

As for the semantics, I disagree that your interpretation is the only way to name these unwritten and written rules.

Leaving EU through a ref + parliament approval is not a constituitional crisis.

The concern are about negotiation positions. Trying to do it without parliament will probably lead to a con. crisis.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/07/brexit-cps-considers-complaint-that-leave-campaigns-misled-voters

Do you understand what is meant by a constitutional crisis?

Much of uk law is dependent on, drawn from and tied in with European law. Negotiations on how we might leave are nothing to do with it. It will not be possible to resolve all of the issues re how the law should operate with us having left the EU simply through negotiations. It will take years of cases and significant legislation to resolve the constitutional issues thrown up by leaving.

That is what is meant by constitutional crisis.

It does not mean leaving is unconstitutional nor does it mean that because it is not unconstitutional it will not result in a constitutional crisis.

You keep saying you disagree but you are yet to offer one single actual supporting fact to back up your position apart from a load of convoluted and conflated opinions about what constitutional law is about that a. Are factually incorrect and b. Don't even make logical sense.

The only fact l know for sure is that the Government told lies. In its leaflet distributed to all homes ( at a cost of over nine million) it states "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide ". OH NO WE WONT

Well, yes, they shouldn't have said that. They didn't think leave would win.

The Government had no power to implement the referendum result. Parliament does, parliament could have legislated to give the government the power to implement a leave result but it didn't.

So yes, that claim on that leaflet was very silly. Especially with such a slim majority in the commons.

The Government's leaflet was contradictory - if Remain had won, there was nothing to implement, it was carry on as before. Implementation could only come about with a Leave vote, but Cameron, no doubt flushed with his unexpected success, probably thought he could pull another success off.

Trawling through Hansard:

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm150616/debtext/150616-0002.htm
16 Jun 2015 : Column 231

The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington):

The legislation is about holding a vote; it makes no provision for what follows. The referendum is advisory, as was the case for both the 1975 referendum on Europe and the Scottish independence vote last year. In neither of those cases was there a threshold for the interpretation of the result.

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldhansrd/text/151013-0002.htm

13 Oct 2015 : Column 153

Lord Higgins (Con):

...I have always been totally opposed to referendums, and in particular to what one might call binding or mandatory referendums, which in effect represent the dictatorship of the majority and take no account of minority interests. They are the antithesis of representative democracy and leave Members of Parliament unable to wholly fulfil their jobs as representatives and not delegates. I was glad to see in a note prepared by the Library that this Bill,

“does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative”....

Why is it that you Brexiters just cannot accept the majority vote??? Why don't you believe in democracy?? Why, when given a vote to run ourselves, would anyone in their right mind not grasp it while it was offered. In the seventies, our parents and grandparents didn't vote for Europe to take complete control of us and our borders, they voted to enter into a common marketplace for free trade deals. This is not what we ended up with.
This is a year of the people's votes mattering instead of the establishment taking their usual route. To top it all off I hope DT wins in the US of A. People power.
You simply cannot have a vote and when it doesn't go your way throw your toys out of your pros until it goes your way. It's not and never will cancel the Brexit vote.

Realjournal
I think you might want to proof read and repost! I though Brexiteers were the majority vote.

Obviously it's typographical error #chazbrilliamtattitude.

Non Brexiters!

You must have been such a hurry to post. Nothing cancels the Brexit vote but nothing makes it legally binding on Parliament either. Its a bit of a shame the Brexiteers didn't focus a little on the procedural issues around what happened after the vote whilst the Act instituting the referendum was going through Parliament. I would have saved all the hassle now.

As far as I can tell, the majority of remainers are not born in the UK or are of parents who are born elsewhere! Wonder how this would work in other countries!! .......just saying......

As far as I can tell, the majority of remainers are not born in the UK or are of parents who are born elsewhere

From what sources are you getting this?