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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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merrymouse · 25/10/2016 13:51

I agree about mansion tax, but no danger of a mansion tax in the near future, whereas many may be fearing the effects of a hard Brexit.

merrymouse · 25/10/2016 13:52

And Heathrow expansion.

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 14:02

Since 1945 there have been three governments that have not made it to 4 years in power

1950 - 1951 Atlee
Lab 315 (50.4% seats)
Con & UU 298

1964 - 1966 Wilson
Labour 317 (50.3% seats)
Con & UU 303

Feb 1974 - Oct 1974 Wilson / Callaghan
Labour 301 (47.4% seats) Minority Government
Con 296

Only one government with under 51% of seats has made it to four years and that was Wilson / Callaghan government in the Oct 1974 election.

Here we are in 2015.

2015 Cameron / May
Con 331 (50.9% Seats)
Lab 232

History would suggest that the odds of making it to 2020 are perhaps not in May's favour. The only thing she does have going for her is the relative weakness of the second party so it will require a cross party opposition to get rid of the current government as well as the Fixed Term Act which is an additional barrier.

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smallfox2002 · 25/10/2016 14:04

All of those major two party splits are smaller hand the current one though red.

SwedishEdith · 25/10/2016 14:08

Sadly of course a lot of them don't get a vote and didn't in the referendum as they don't have British citizenship,

I wonder if some have addressed this now though because of the referendum.

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 14:21

Yes, I said that smallfox.

It really depends MORE on how the rest of the parties manage to work together more than the slim majority. The more Brexit is mismanaged though, the more that is more likely that opposition will come.

Plus, Brexit provides a unique set of circumstances where government MPs are particularly unhappy again for the way May is managing the situation. The rebels are perhaps the majority rather than the minority if you go on how Remain/Leave were split and there are also plenty of disenchanted Leavers too.

We shall see.

We shall see what the courts throw up too. If Heathrow ends up in the courts, it could get very interesting.

Personally, I think 2020 is a VERY long time away and this type of pressure / rebellion is not going to let up at all in that time due to May's management style. Its not just Brexit but a number of different issues - Heathrow and Grammar Schools to name two.

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prettybird · 25/10/2016 14:23

Those unstable governments were also the few times that Scotland influenced the "colour" of the government. Contrary to popular perception, Scotland rarely makes the difference.

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 14:23

Both Corbyn and McDonnell are anti-Heathrow.

The SNP are pro-Heathrow. I wonder if that might change if they sense a chance to piss off May in an act of opportunism.

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TheElementsSong · 25/10/2016 14:35

Has anyone seen this?Grin

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 14:41

TheElementsSong

Priceless !!!!!

smallfox2002 · 25/10/2016 14:51

I agree rwe, may is already facing large divisions in her party.

My insider tells me the single market issue is bigger than Heathrow but many are anti Heathrow too!

prettybird · 25/10/2016 14:59

Not sure if the SNP will change its tune - but I've not read the justification behind their support (memo to self: must go and seek it out Wink). I do recall the support came with conditions - like more slots for connections to Scottish airports. I know that when BA took over BMI's slots and reallocated them to more lucrative long haul flights, there were rumblings about how Scotland was being disadvantaged by the loss of so many slots into Heathrow.

MirabelleTree · 25/10/2016 15:27

The pound is falling again this afternoon

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
CeciledeVolanges · 25/10/2016 15:31

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people/?utmsource=feedburner&utmmmedium=email&utmcampaign=Feed%3A+BritishPoliticsAndPolicyAtLse+%28British+politics+and+policy+at+LSE%29

MirabelleTree · 25/10/2016 15:48

Thank you for posting that Cecile. It has the figures I was looking for fir as Mother of a 17 year who didn't get to vote :

'By March 2017 when Article 50 is due to be initiated, there will be approximately 563,000 new 18-year-old voters, with approximately a similar number of deaths, the vast majority (83 percent) amongst those over 65. Assuming those who voted stick with their decision and based on the age profile of the referendum result, that, alone, year on year adds more to the Remain majority. A Financial Times model indicated that simply based on that demographic profile, by 2021 the result would be reversed and that will be the case for the foreseeable future.'

I am suggesting to DD that she writes to our MP when she turns 18 in the not too distant future to introduce herself and let him know her views.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 25/10/2016 16:13

Theresa May will gone by Christmas, if not earlier.

SwedishEdith · 25/10/2016 16:27

'Australia has just dealt a massive blow to the UK government's Brexit plans.'

uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-liam-fox-eu-australia-trade-deals-2016-10

Tbh, I'm not sure anyone but Fox thought "Fox had intended to begin negotiating free-trade deals with states like Australia before the Article 50 period comes to an end, which would lay the foundations for deals to be signed shortly after Britain completes its exit."

SapphireStrange · 25/10/2016 16:35

Tbh, I'm not sure anyone but Fox thought "Fox had intended to begin negotiating free-trade deals with states like Australia before the Article 50 period comes to an end, which would lay the foundations for deals to be signed shortly after Britain completes its exit."

Me either, Edith. It's a close call as to who is more deluded/bullish, him or May.

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 16:36

Australia ruling out pre-A50 negotiations isn't "news". It was announced in September. Although we are finding some things do seem to need repeating before some people hear them. Let alone believe them.

usuallydormant · 25/10/2016 16:43

Thanks again to all the posters on this thread and the previous ones for the great contributions.

It's not strictly politics but I came across this, talking about Britain as a brand in terms of semiotics: how cultural segments related to Brexit and paradoxes in British culture reflect the vote as well as how this may impact on British brands and indeed Brand Britain. www.creativesemiotics.co.uk/blog/2016/10/18/post-brexit-british-brands-semiotic-pov/

More quandrants for you to plot yourself on... (He uses British but I wonder if it is more English culture). Anyway, worth a read if you are interested in cultural analysis /branding. Also has some good cartoons from around the world on Brexit at the very end. And a link to a tango ad from 1997 which is interesting to watch post Brexit even if you don't read the article.

There's a also a interesting quote from Helen Edwards in Campaign Magazine, referencing the lack of planning from the UK government and how this damages Brand Britain:

“For decades, Britishness has translated as a desirable amalgam of creativity, irreverence and edginess founded on – and made possible by – an underlying steadfastness and solidity. It’s the combination that made “Union Jack” brands attractive” but that Brexit had made Britain “a bit less sexy, a bit less credible, less relevant; sadder, sillier, more entrenched; with codes that could once be deployed with irony but which now come over as marks of sullen, arms-crossed insularity.”

Peregrina · 25/10/2016 16:49

Its not just Brexit but a number of different issues - Heathrow and Grammar Schools to name two.

Add in HS2. Residents of the Chilterns are already up in arms about this, and since it won't have any stops en-route they stand to gain no benefit whatever.

twofingerstoGideon · 25/10/2016 16:50
Hmm
Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
jaws5 · 25/10/2016 16:54

usuallydormant thanks for that! I've been thinking how, from an academic methodology of cultural studies and semiotics, Brexit is going to have a lot of meat on the bone. Off to read it properly!

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 16:56

Add in HS2. Residents of the Chilterns are already up in arms about this, and since it won't have any stops en-route they stand to gain no benefit whatever.

Add in the fact that given it's completion date of 2030, it's entirely possible it won't be used/needed anyway.

TheElementsSong · 25/10/2016 16:59

That was a very interesting read, usuallydormant - thank you!

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