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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 14:32

I was never taught at school before 16. Yes as part as optional A Level history - as part of American history (nothing on British side).

I left in 1996. So for my generation no. Not really.

No idea now. I suspect nothing has changed especially with the marginalisation of media/history/politics by Gove.

David Allen Green has been poking fun at May's approach today (sam coates reporting May mostly spoke during phone call to juncker according to EU source) saying she is Ferdinard Foch.

Foch was a French general in WWI who said:

"My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I am attacking."

Do I need to prove source and background info and context to this image or is it pretty self explanatory?

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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Mistigri · 04/11/2016 14:32

OK, so I am obviously a foreigner / former immigrant. Don't they teach some kind of constitutional law / politics in schools in England (my DS is too young for me to know yet)?

You've hit the nail on the head. Premature specialisation in English schools makes it perfectly possible for pupils to have very little history or civics education after age 13/14. Contrast this with my children's continental European education - my DD in equivalent-Y12 who is studying for a science baccalaureat in France still does 4 hours of history (taught in Spanish, no less) and 1 hour of civic education a week.

Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 14:35

I learnt about the UK constitution (or lack of) through the post-graduate diploma in law.

History at school was Henry VIII (x2) and first world war. in my day (80s) there were no classes on citizenship or on how the UK constitution developed piecemeal and I was at an academic school and wanted to learn.

Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 14:36

I know the paywall is an issue: but interesting article in the FT magazine - www.ft.com/content/c0052e1e-a14b-11e6-86d5-4e36b35c3550 The Age of Vitriol on how social media particularly has massively pushed the boundaries of what people feel they can say.

fancyknittedstuff · 04/11/2016 14:50
God Save The Queen playout - BBC Newsnight
TheBathroomSink · 04/11/2016 14:51

I studied History for GCSE and A Level. I was lucky, I think, that both school and 6th Form had picked the exam board where we studied British political and social history from 1860 onwards, in a fairly chronological order (we skipped WW2 at GCSE), and at A Level, we added Russian and German history with an inevitable bit of French, Italian and American. I was also lucky that I had two outstanding teachers across the two courses. My A Level class had 6 students - would that even be able to run today?

We didn't have any citizenship classes, or anything like that, so most of what I learned came from history lessons. My DS is choosing his options this year and I think I have finally succeeded in persuading him of the importance of history over geography, although the curriculum on offer now seems a lot more scattered.

mupperoon · 04/11/2016 15:53

Before this thread goes pop I'd like to say Kaija that I got a lot of childish satisfaction covering up piles of Daily Mails and Expresses with copies of the New European in the supermarket this morning as per your suggestion (it was you wasn't it?) Even got cheered by an elderly gent! BOOM!

PattyPenguin · 04/11/2016 16:05

From the 'got to laugh or you'll cry' department.

Huffpost Topicalol
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-article-50_uk_581c5bcbe4b0c2e24aaf35b1?utm_hp_ref=topical-comedy

And Fleet Street Fox in the Daily Mirror
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-brouhaha-exactly-what-britain-9195656

Kaija · 04/11/2016 16:17

That's the spirit, mupperoon Grin

tiggytape · 04/11/2016 16:22

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morningrunner · 04/11/2016 16:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 16:33

Wasn't keeping the masses unaware about the workings of government a theme in 1984 ?

If you don't know how it works, you don't know it's working wrong.

It's also interesting to note the long-held disdain the English have held for people who "know their rights". Knowledge which - in any other country would be respected - somehow becomes sinister and derogatory in England.

jaws5 · 04/11/2016 16:34

I come from a European country with a written constitution. It is normal for people to have a copy of the constitution at home, and obviously in school libraries, etc. This, the lack of a written constitution, is probably one of the reasons why so many people are up in arms about the ruling yesterday? I am astonished to see so many people who are angry because "democracy is not being respected" and that judges are being portrayed as an "elite" against "the people. The usual suspects, DM, Express, Sun, are getting away with lying because if the general ignorance of something essential to democracy: The separation of the three powers. Obviously this is not, and has never been taught at school? If people ignore the law of their own country, how easy will it be to manipulate them about the laws of the EU? I'm so shocked that last night I sat my children down and explained it to them, and I intend to continue doing it as I want them to be full citizens when they grow up.

LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 16:36

I come from a European country with a written constitution

Hardly narrows it down Grin.

Point of interest. The US constitution is based on the UK constitution as of 1780 or thereabouts. IIRC Jefferson was a big fan ...

jaws5 · 04/11/2016 16:40

lurking, Grin just emphasising the point!

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 16:42

Sorry being thick perhaps and don't speak german- what was that?

Newspaper from 1930s Germany.

Its attacking the judges photographed for being traitors to the state.

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LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 16:43

There used to be an organisation - Charter 88? - that campaigned for a written UK constitution.

Probably gone the way of the electoral reform lobby Sad

Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 16:48

Lurking- o think it was one of those things which would be picked up in a bill of rights and which would also replace the Human Rights Act.

jaws5 · 04/11/2016 16:50

Red that's chilling. I'm also astonished that the government are not taking this opportunity to properly defend democracy by explaining that the judges yesterday were I'm fact upholding democracy, not subverting it! I worry that the next lot of judges at the SC will be afraid to do the same.

LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 16:55

Lurking- o think it was one of those things which would be picked up in a bill of rights and which would also replace the Human Rights Act.

But they are only a tiny part of what a constitution is.

It really does enrich you to read the US constitution. It is an entire "how to run a country" manual. It even explains how the US can grow - the process of adding states.

And it's much slimmer than a copy of "Hello !" magazine.

Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 17:09

Sorry yes - the bill of rights was a precursor to a proper written constitution. To s certain extent though not having a constitution works very well so long as the government understand how it works.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 17:20

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04f52sr?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=daily_politics&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
As IDS says 'Courts have said they know better than this'. The judges who ruled on Article 50 vote are "stepping beyond a line they have ever crossed before."

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Difficult to see how @trussliz's continued silence over attacks on judiciary is consistent with her statutory duties as Lord Chancellor.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Section 3(6) of this 2003 Act sets out the Lord Chancellor's statutory duty to protect judicial independence:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/4/section/3

This is Section 3 (6)
The Lord Chancellor must have regard to—
(a) the need to defend that independence;
(b) the need for the judiciary to have the support necessary to enable them to exercise their functions;
(c) the need for the public interest in regard to matters relating to the judiciary or otherwise to the administration of justice to be properly represented in decisions affecting those matters.

Oh.

FUCK knows what that means if she doesn't.

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LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 17:23

The argument for an unwritten constitution is that it is flexible, and more able to change to adapt to changes in society.

Which is all very well, but I suspect for that to remain true there has to be a certain flexibility/change in other areas. The electoral system, for example.

It must be clear to even the thickest of the thick, that the current FPTP system is horribly broken. And broken electoral systems are not a great way to ensure a happy population.

It might be an ill wind blowing some good, but at least Brexit has woken large swathes of people up to the fact that a system which is prepared to not only ignore, but viciously shaft 1 in 2 citizens up the back passage with a baseball bat is irreparably broken.

I'm old enough to say I have never experienced such anger and fury as the past 7 months have produced in all my life. The closest I can imagine is the Catholic/Protestant schism of Henry VIII. Because going back then, you were one. Or the other. There was - and could be no middle ground.

Again, we're back to history. And the pisspoor English knowledge of their own history.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 17:26

www.thesun.co.uk/news/2116964/seven-reasons-theresa-may-general-election-2017/
SNAP ELECTION? NOT LIKELY Seven reasons why Theresa May will not call a General Election in 2017 despite Brexit legal defeat

Poll fever has gripped Westminster again but our Political Editor explains why it isn’t going to happen

This is in the Sun. Good article.

Makes the following point amongst others:
Elections are always risky prospects, no matter how far ahead any one party may be in the polls. Staying in the EU had a 15 point lead a year ago. Electorates don’t like being consulted unless really need to be, so voters may turn on the PM if they think she is playing games. They are also volatile and unpredictable these days – as David Cameron (and Hilary Clinton) will testify.

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whatwouldrondo · 04/11/2016 17:31

As a representative of the over 50s at my school we certainly did study the history of our democracy pretty much from Ur to Rome through to the Civil War and Chartists (though the latter may have arisen as a result of the strong local history ) even before I moved to O and A level where we studied it in more depth. It was a northern direct grant grammar school staffed by embittered blue stocking spinster radicals (quite a few gay) who had had a raw deal from academia and war and were probably on a project to radicalise us against the patriarchy. However I remember helping my brother when he studied similar and he emerged from the secondary modern with 2CSEs. I agree as others have said that as a generation we do understand or at least were taught about the history of parliamentary democracy and the checks and balances.

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