Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
SwedishEdith · 25/10/2016 17:00

Those images have got May's hairstyle the wrong way round - trivial, I know.

Thanks for those links usually . Skim-read for now but, "To cut to the chase, #Brexit has been a touchstone for extreme class elements. It is both the symptom of and catalyst for the manifestation of both a superiority from above and a pent up xenophobia from below and this also contains relevance for British brands." is pretty spot on.

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 17:32

www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/10/25/may-s-student-deportation-programme-in-tatters-as-legal-appe

Home Office Appeal v The Students. Get who lost and has to now pay costs.

We should have a 'How much taxpayers money has May Wasted' calculator.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 18:13

You know how the betting on Richmond Park started off with Zac Goldsmith the favourite with both William Hill and Labrokes.

Well guess where the money has been going....

Lib Dems the fav with both now.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 18:17

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
Confirmed Tories won't run against Goldsmith-avoids a political headache, but risks looking like May doesnt want to fight to defend decision

This really makes it harder for the Lib Dems - it shows how scared May is of them though.

They need to win to look credible as having a chance to fight back.

Will be difficult but there is enough there to do it.

OP posts:
twofingerstoGideon · 25/10/2016 18:25

www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/videos/883323068436370/

The spanking new video from Scientists for EU. Brilliant.

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 18:29

Goldsmith has said that he wants the by-election to be a referendum on Heathrow.

But now since the Conservatives aren't standing a candidate against him, he's rather banjaxed. He has been outmanoeuvred.

The other main opposition to him in the seat are the Lib Dems who are also Anti-Heathrow. So he's effectively holding a referendum on Heathrow against another anti-heathrow candidate.

For May, it was clear it was too much of a risk to the seat and to her political ambitions to stand another Conservative.

However this actually isn't a bad thing for the Lib Dems either. Goldsmith has nowhere to go on that. They now get to set the agenda as a Brexit related one, as they are also anti-Heathrow, but they are in line with locals on the EU referendum. Richmond was the 9th Highest Remain area.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 25/10/2016 18:30

I think it looks as though May is humouring a sulky child if nobody runs against Goldsmith - although I can see why she wouldn't want to split the vote. I can't think how he could oppose Heathrow expansion more effectively from outside the party.

Peregrina · 25/10/2016 18:35

Home Office Appeal v The Students. Get who lost and has to now pay costs.

But fortunately for the Government, the Heathrow runway decision will push this to the inside pages. How very convenient.

Peregrina · 25/10/2016 18:54

but risks looking like May doesnt want to fight to defend decision
It doesn't look good - they are afraid of a by-election. If things were going so swimmingly for them as the poll suggest, there should be absolutely no problem.

StripeyMonkey1 · 25/10/2016 19:32

TheElementsSong I'm just catching up so a bit late to this, but the video you posted is great. Maybe it should also go on that "time for a re-vote" thread?

CeciledeVolanges · 25/10/2016 20:10

"Once everyone who doesn’t fit is excluded, those who remain are transformed from real people into weaponised stereotypes to be turned against those who resist the advance of jam-obsessed fascism. "

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/25/white-working-class-brexiters-politicians-bigotry

Kaija · 25/10/2016 22:06

Well.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/25/exclusive-leaked-recording-shows-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit

No surprises as far as the content is concerned. What do we think about this appearing just now?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 25/10/2016 22:27

Oh dear. There goes any credibility May had. And to Goldman Sachs as well - the sworn enemy of the "anti establishment" Brexiters.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 25/10/2016 22:31

she said this and now she's peddling hard Brexit?

merrymouse · 25/10/2016 22:34

Goldman Sachs again!

CeciledeVolanges · 25/10/2016 22:36

I think the bit at the end about the government's determination to make the best of Brexit is very telling. Not get the best for the Uk, or make the best decisions for the Uk, just "the government will make the best of it."

Peregrina · 25/10/2016 23:01

It's always been about what is best for the Tory party. If it happens to do some good for the country that's a bonus, but it's a by product.

prettybird · 25/10/2016 23:40

I caught a few minutes of the Jeremy Vine Show in R2 (think it was Vanessa Feltz hosting today). After listening to a caller saying what wonderful opportunities there were to be developed trading with our Commonwealth partners (specifically mentioned India, as well as Australia and NZ), I then heard the Australian Minister for Trade and Investment say without a hint of irony that the best way forward for business is within regional free trade areas. HmmConfused

Must go back and listen to it again to check that they really said that Shock

Peregrina · 26/10/2016 08:54

If there really had been such rich pickings for trade with the Commonwealth, wouldn't we have been doing that for the last 43 years and not bothered with the Common Market at all? It sounds like another person lamenting the end of Empire.

I think myself that the Commonwealth will become a much looser alliance once the Queen dies.

SapphireStrange · 26/10/2016 09:50

It is an interesting point, Kaija, about why that recording should appear right now. I can't work it out but will mull it over.

I've written to my MP to say that this recording has raised an eyebrow, to say the least, and to point out that her spokesperson's response: 'Britain made a clear choice to vote to leave the EU’ simply isn't good enough. And to say how tired I am of the ‘clear choice’/‘overwhelming mandate’ rhetoric being put up around the referendum result.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 09:51

The commonwealth will go when Queenie carks it - unless William takes over as there is no love for Charles. (William has two cute kids, and he'd be wise to get Kate to keep popping them out in the national interest to flog Brand Britannia).

Goldman Sachs. Ouch. The conspiracy theorists will be having a field day. I do wonder who that leaks benefits most as a result.

It does make her look monumentally stupid and weak though, which ever side you look at it though.

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson
Guardian has leaked secret tape of May's Brexit speech at Goldman Sachs which ticks all the headline boxes

This is certainly true. ^

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4a9d0b0a-9aee-11e6-af4a-15a7db50bae8
Thousands of Vauxhall jobs at risk from Brexit
Carmaker warns of plant closures after $400m hit

This report comes out the day of that leak and is compounded by the Vauxhall announcement....

The Resolution Foundation Briefing - Pressing the reset button: The public finance options facing the chancellor in the Autumn Statement.
www.resolutionfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Pressing-the-reset-button.pdf

However, the analysis in this paper raises the prospect of the new Chancellor having to respond to an £84 billion deterioration (in 2015-16 prices) in the public finances cumulatively across the five years of the forecast period to 2020-21.

and

Averaging across a number of independent forecasters who have their projections collated by HM Treasury, we find that the economy is now expected to be £60 billion smaller in 2020 than was thought just before the referendum. Likewise, average weekly earnings are estimated to be around £700 a year lower in nominal terms in 2020 than the pre-referendum forecasts suggested. Adding in revisions to CPI inflation increases the real earnings hit to just over £1,050 a year. And fewer people are set to be in work, with the average forecast for unemployment suggesting that around 600,000 more people will be out of work in 2020 than was previously thought

and

As Figure 4 shows, the OBR had previously projected an overall surplus of £10 billion in both 2019-20 and 2020-21 (in 2015-16 prices). Under the adjustments we apply, the government now appears on course to record deficits of £13 billion in 2019-20 and £9 billion in 2020-21. The combination of in-year changes and potential ‘Brexit effects’ is therefore assumed to generate a £23 billion annual deterioration in the public finances by 2019-20.

and

As noted above, the Chancellor approaches the Autumn Statement with something of a shopping list in his hand. The new Prime Minister’s focus on ‘just managing’ families provides an especial challenge.

The tax and benefit plans inherited by the new Chancellor are set to make things harder for this particular group over the coming years, meaning that he is under some pressure to change these plans. Our estimate at the March Budget suggested that cuts in working age benefits would lower incomes among the bottom 30 per cent of the population by more than 3 per cent in 2020-21, with only very modest offset from income tax cuts and the arrival of the National Living Wage. In contrast, this same suite of policies was expected to raise incomes in the top half of the distribution.

And, as mentioned earlier, higher inflation related to the falling value of the pound and slower wage growth than previously anticipated mean that the squeeze on the ‘just managing’ is now likely to get tighter in the absence of any change in policy.

The Chancellor also faces the cost of meeting existing Conservative promises. The 2015 election manifesto included high profile pledges to increase the personal allowance (the point at which people start paying income tax) to £12,500 by the end of the parliament and to raise the point at which the higher rate of 40 per cent becomes payable to £50,000.

Bang goes another manifesto pledge.

To be blunt about it, Brexit is starting to look unaffordable - and this is without considering whether it will be hard or soft. Who is going to own up and tell it like it really is?

You can either have the NHS or you can have Brexit. But not both.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 09:58

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-steven-woolfe-mike-hookem-police-martin-schultz-european-parliament-president-a7380641.html
Ukip MEP altercation between Steven Woolfe and Mike Hookem referred to police by European parliament president

What we really need now is an EU by election to put the cat amongst the pigeons. twitches

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 10:11

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8d46911e-9aea-11e6-af4a-15a7db50bae8
Dublin woos London’s EU agencies

1,800 pharmaceutical industry jobs likely to move to Dublin

JudicialPowerProject @judicialpwr
Prof John Finnis on the article 50 litigation: Claimants have mistaken treaty rights for statutory rights
judicialpowerproject.org.uk/john-finnis-terminating-treaty-based-uk-rights/

Mark Elliott ‏@ProfMarkElliott
An outstandingly clear — and in my view compelling — piece by John Finnis. Shows exactly how Government should have argued Article 50 case

news.sky.com/story/sky-views-britains-soft-power-is-vanishing-when-europe-needs-it-most-10632551
Sky Views: Britain's soft power is vanishing when Europe needs it most

www.buzzfeed.com/saraspary/mps-launch-inquiry-into-workers-rights-and-the-gig-economy?utm_term=.bcaWdb7qV#.uf1jBKO4r

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 26/10/2016 10:17

I read the Finnis piece this morning, Red. Sadly gives them a great framework to argue in the Supreme Court.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 10:32

labourlist.org/2016/10/exclusive-labour-mps-call-on-party-to-drop-out-of-goldsmith-by-election/

OOOOOOOOoooo Labour to drop out of Richmond by-election?!

www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-10-26/florida-poll?utm_content=politics&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-politics

OK this is concerning me. Poll in Florida has Trump ahead. Just about every poll for the US I've seen has Florida as a Weak Democrat. Its worth 29 points in the electoral college. Florida is v important.

What looks like is happening is the independents are taking vote share from Clinton.

Since Pussygate I had thought things were going the other way.

Yesterday I heard that turnout was up in Texas and was higher than expected. This means one of three things; either democrats who normally are registered but don't vote have (I hear turn out is particularly high in Austin) - Clinton has apparently been campaigning in Texas which is unusual for a Democrat, republicans think Clinton is right wing enough, or people have turned out for trump.

The only thing that has not happen is that there has not been a huge increase in the number of voter registrations - so the people who normally don't vote who were a particularly big part of the Brexit vote - are not in play.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread