Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
smallfox2002 · 24/10/2016 16:56

She still said though that she wanted a free trade agreement and control of immigration.

Nightofthetentacle · 24/10/2016 16:56

Definitely thanks for the new thread - I've been lying low for work deadlines pretending that Brexit isn't happening, didn't work but flit in now and again as these are excellent sources of what is, and is not, going on.

That Nicola Sturgeon interview on her meeting at Downing St is bloody good. She is just so credible in a way that none of May's lot, with the exception of Hammond, seem to manage.

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 17:04

Is May deluded? Or is she being bullish because she knows it's a disaster but can't think of any way out?

I'm watching her now and I'd say not even that bullish. Keeps talking about the "best deal" for both UK and EU. Well, I'm sure she knows what that probably is.

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 17:10

Oh, and she said "we all now realised the custom's union is more complex than we first thought". Well, only her 3 clowns probably hadn't realised that. They are there...but Hammond is not .

SapphireStrange · 24/10/2016 17:15

Edith, that reminds me, I saw a picture of today's meeting earlier and thought I couldn't see Hammond. Is that usual? I'd have thought the Chancellor was quite important at a meeting like this.

HesterThrale · 24/10/2016 17:19

Sapphire, is this the picture? I can't see Boris either.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37747995

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 17:21

Boris was there. Don't know how unusual it is if CofEx not there. Maybe he's just getting on with it behind the scenes? Wink

SapphireStrange · 24/10/2016 17:26

Yes, and good point, Johnson's mug is nowhere to be seen.

Maybe it's OK. [worried]

From Grauniad Politics Live, Theresa M earlier, in response to Andy Burnham's question on the impact of a hard Brexit on the regions.

'The gentleman seems to think all of these decisions are binary, whether you can control immigration or you can get a free trade deal.

That is not the case. We are going to be ambitious in what we hope to get for the UK, a good trade deal as well as control on immigration.'

'in what we hope to get' is a telling phrase, no? Especially when what she's hoping for here is, basically, pie in the sky? The rest of the EU have wasted no time in telling her 'free trade, free movement'.

SapphireStrange · 24/10/2016 17:27

Oops, just seen you said Boris WAS there, sorry.

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 17:31

News flash

Diane Abbott was pretty good talking about the Calais camps.

whatwouldrondo · 24/10/2016 17:52

Bloomberg may have read your post on the last thread Red www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-23/bankers-quitting-brexit-britain-risk-budget-hole-for-hammond?cmpid=BBBXT102416

Funnily when Open Britain posted the article on Facebook one of the leave trolls posted the Daily Mail article as a devastating counterargument to the Bloomberg article. So not all their readers saw through it......

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 17:53

Ah, Hammond was there. Andy Burnham just posted video of him asking question with the "no suggestion of hard Brexit" response from May.

prettybird · 24/10/2016 18:35

I find it interesting the way that different words - while accurate - can give a totally different flavour to a report.

Sarah Smith (BBC reporter, who hates the SNP is one of John Smith's daughters) reported that Nicola Sturgeon had come with a series of "demands" that she wanted addressed and weren't. She could just as easily have said that NS had a series of "concerns" (or even issues) that she wanted addressed. Hmm

lalalonglegs · 24/10/2016 18:40

Just place-marking, nothing very useful to say except thanks again to RTB.

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 19:43

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 10m10 minutes ago
Understand Scottish Government looking at EFTA membership for Scotland as one "flexible Brexit" proposal to be put forward in coming weeks

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 6m6 minutes ago
In theory EFTA initially require only the OK of the EFTA Council - Norway, Iceland, Switzerland & Liechtenstein - but need to be a "State"
0 replies 4 retweets 5 likes

Will Neill @NillWeill
@faisalislam @MartinSandbu @FT But wouldn't there have to be a border between England and Scotland then

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 4m4 minutes ago
Faisal Islam Retweeted Will Neill
In theory yes, but Edinburgh makes point that if D Davis promises only a soft border in Ireland, Scots can have same

prettybird · 24/10/2016 19:50

I think we made that very point many many threads ago SwedishEdith Grin

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 19:57

Well, quite. If it wasn't so depressing, it'd be a fascinating conundrum. And will be the material of social science essay questions for decades. In fact, my eldest has got a Brexit question to do on her current university course. Grin

prettybird · 24/10/2016 20:08

It's funny how history and events impact on real life - and how we might look back on them. I remember doing an essay on the ERM when I was doing my Economics Honours degree. but it was sooooo long ago I can't even remember what I argued Blush

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2016 20:41

David Allen Green on his renamed twitter account:

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
There is no consistency between what May said today ("no suggestion" of Hard Brexit) with what she said at CPC.

None whatsoever.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
At first, Theresa May contradicted her Brexit ministers, each of them in turn.

Now, she is contradicting herself.

There is no strategy.

Andrew Mackay ‏@mackayac
@Lawandpolicy Amazing what meeting Nissan, bankers & EU27 leaders rather than Disgusted of Sevenoaks does to policy...

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Tusk: Hard Brexit or no Brexit
May: No suggestion of a Hard Brexit

Well.

She's not just doing U Turns. She's doing donuts in car.

OP posts:
ClashCityRocker · 24/10/2016 21:00

Thanks for the update RTB.

I'm concerned that article 50 will be invoked because 'democracy, innit' and then there will be nothing but squabbling and in-fighting whilst the clock ticks down.

We live in interesting times.

TheNorthRemembers · 24/10/2016 21:06

Just marking my place with a giant sigh.

It does not add anything to our Brexit discussion, but lately I have seen some news about Hungary, the other scourge of the EU. Now they are unwilling to take any refugees, but because of the huge shortage of workforce (who are probably all in England, Germany and Slovakia) they have quietly started bringing in people from Ukraine. The article specifically interviewed people living around the Samsung factory. People were not happy, because Samsung were paying half the going rate to the Ukrainians who were quite happy with the money, living in cramped conditions with no heating, lack of war and were thinking about permanently moving there. Is it familiar?

prettybird · 24/10/2016 21:06

"She's not just doing U Turns. She's doing donuts in car."

GrinThat's worth a tweet on its own! Grin

prettybird · 24/10/2016 21:30

Interesting article here on the statistics of "hate crimes" in Scotland before and after the referendum, from statistics obtained from a FOI request.

https://mewsingoutloud.wordpress.com/2016/10/24/is-scotland-different/

TheElementsSong · 24/10/2016 21:40

She's not just doing U Turns. She's doing donuts in car.

Love it! Grin

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2016 21:52

Zane Malik @MalikZane
Court of Appeal will hear Home Secretary's appeals from Qadir/SM (TOEIC/ETS etc) tomorrow. Court 69. 10:00am. RCJ.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
This concerns the Home Office student deportation case under Theresa May

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/03/23/disaster-for-theresa-may-as-legal-ruling-brings-student-depo
Disaster for Theresa May as legal ruling brings student deportations to a halt

Article on the issue from March.

The ruling could hardly be more damning. It found Theresa May deported thousands of students from Britain on the basis of unscientific hearsay evidence. The Home Office behaved like a tin-pot dictatorship: detaining innocent people, accusing them of made-up charges without providing anything to back it up, denying them their day in court and then deporting them.

Today's ruling could open the doors to the return of thousands of students to the UK, if – of course - they wish to come back to a country which has treated them so appallingly. And it brings to a shuddering halt Theresa May's mass deportation programme of students. It also raises serious questions about the legal and operational functions – as well as the basic morality – of the Home Office.

and later:

How did the Home Office get to the point where it started deporting innocent people on the basis of unreliable hearsay evidence and without any proper judicial remedy? Why did the home secretary breach her duty of candour with those being accused of fraud? How is a private firm contracted to do public service work for the UK government issuing fantastical information to the Home Office? Why is it getting away with shutting up shop and refusing to comply with a tribunal? How did the Home Office end up being completely reliant on a foreign private contractor in the first place? And what is the home secretary going to do to contact the people who were unlawfully removed from this country so that they can now return to the UK?

For now, the unlawful deportations have stopped. But this case raises serious questions about the culture and morality of the Home Office and the people in charge of it.

Jesus Wept.

Read the comments after if you can stomach it. Lots of calls for her resignation.

Seems like May has a chip on her shoulder with regard to foreigners, experts, lawyers and students. I think that just shows that Brexit so far has been consistent and in keeping with her time at the home office.

Will be interesting to see how the appeal goes tomorrow and whether it generates any more column inches in the wider media.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread