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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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LurkingHusband · 24/10/2016 21:54

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Peregrina · 24/10/2016 22:14

The Home Office Student deportations are appalling. Will the press bother to report it? Theresa May herself ought to be locked up. At least we can gather from this exactly why she has latched onto immigration as the only issue which matters in Brexit, and why the Tory party conference had such a nasty xenophobic tone.

prettybird · 24/10/2016 22:22

There is a case in Scotland of a Canadian couple who bought a village store in a remote place, kept it - and the resource for the local community alive -when no one else wanted to do so, through difficult times, but because they've only employed one person rather than the two required on their visa, they are going to be deported. Confused

They've spent £240,000(?) on the business but no-one wants to buy it because you can make more in populated areas so when they go, not only will they lose money but the rural area will lose an important amenity Sad

The immigration laws are designed for over-populated areas - not areas desperate for new blood. Angry

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 22:28

Wasn't there a similar case with an Australian family? They've been allowed to stay, I believe.

prettybird · 24/10/2016 22:36

The Australian family were finally allowed to stay as (iirc) she finally got a job that paid enough.

This is a new one - which involves a business visa where they are not fulfilling the criteria (ie they're supposed to employ 2 people rather than the one that they can afford at the moment).

RBeer · 24/10/2016 22:36

But you have to ask the question. What will England be like when it's out. Surely the demand for products will ease. And what do young scots say when their right to work unimbeeded in Europe ends.

Peregrina · 24/10/2016 22:44

Yeah, right. This is the country which is open for business. This is as long as you don't fall foul of some arbitrary rule someone has just dreamed up.

prettybird · 24/10/2016 22:49

Latest news I can find is a blog by Jason Zielsdorf on 7 September which says that the store is still open as they have to try to sell it as a going concern but they are being deported.

This article in the Herald from earlier in the year gives more background

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14537763.display/

smallfox2002 · 24/10/2016 22:58

"What will England be like when it's out. " (sic)

Poorer, but it isn't an "England" question is it.

"Surely the demand for products will ease."

Depends on the determinants of demand doesn't it. Price ( important as many goods are price inelastic), income (demand may drop if we're poorer as a nation), and quite importantly the availability of substitutes and compliments.

SwedishEdith · 25/10/2016 00:28

I idly wandered on to a UKIP councillor's Twitter page and saw this,

"Cllr John Perry ‏@JohnPerryUK 3h3 hours ago
One of the #Brexit benefits is being able to bring back duty free liquor from the #EU, just like you can from #Jersey or #Guernsey today."

Erm, I'm trying to work out why bringing in just 4 litres of wine or 1 litre of spirits is better than bringing in unlimited amounts from the EU.

smallfox2002 · 25/10/2016 00:48

Did you see the one in the Sun where they said Fosters would be cheaper after a deal with Australia? Except it won't its brewed under licence over here!

mathanxiety · 25/10/2016 04:29

Referring to the reports of the meeting with SNP, NI ministers, Welsh representatives and TM..

I noted that Arlene Foster (Democratic Unionist Party - party of the late Rev. Ian Paisley, MP) seemed to be the only one who seemed satisfied - or maybe she was being very guarded after the meeting.

Earlier in October I saw it reported that Foster was schmoozing at the Tory Party conference.

I hope that TM isn't going to attempt any divide and conquer effort in NI. The result of any approach that involves separating your fellow Brexiteers from everyone else in NI would involve separating parties that are only just working together in the NI Assembly, in a province that only very recently went through a savage 30+ years of civil war. The stakes in NI are far too high for May to use the DUP inclination to toady up to the Tories for short term Brexit related advantage.

Wrt the Theresa May Home Office deportations of students - I firmly believe that this is the real TM we are seeing: a hard right ideologue who leaves Farage looking like an amateur when it comes to immigration.

I think her willingness to run roughshod over conventions of civilised society speaks volumes about her, likewise her willingness to work completely outside of the scrutiny of Parliament or the courts.

Expecting the devolved governments to do their utmost to make Brexit work is in similar vein - no inkling there, it seems, on the part of TM and the diehard Brexiteers that the devolved provinces voted Remain and clearly do not think Brexit is in their best interests, and it should be taken as a given that they or certain parties within them are actively exploring alternatives to union.

Her 'donuts' illustrate that she doesn't think she is ever going to be quoted. She appears to live very much inside her own head and doesn't seem to feel accountable to any of the civil institutions of which she is a part, or in any way obliged to bring any subtlety or finesse to her communications with any of the parties who are in a position to fold their arms and say 'LOL' to her pronouncements (including powerful people and institutions in the EU).

There is something very odd and very 'off' about this character.

CeciledeVolanges · 25/10/2016 07:04

Oh God, Heathrow.
I never thought I would be crying and having panic attacks about politics, before June this year (or May, maybe April).
What about the Paris agreement? What about climate change? International law?
I have to be honest, I have thought not just about emigration but about what the future of the world is like when this can happen in a rich and civilised country. I'm terrified, and depressed.
Sorry about the rant and the lack of substantive content to it. I really need maybe not to listen to the morning news :(

MirabelleTree · 25/10/2016 07:48

Place marking, thank you RTB.

BestIsWest · 25/10/2016 09:09

Thaknk you again RTB.

dudleymcdudley · 25/10/2016 09:11

There is something very odd and very 'off' about this character.

I keep pondering on the fact her upbringing was presumably very religious as the child of a Christian minister. I think some religious people have a "God complex" in that they believe their status as a true believer and "chosen one" means that their beliefs and actions are imbued with righteousness.
I.e. If she believes something is the right course of action then it is the right course of action. Such a person will never be good at consensus politics or compromising imo.

namechange34 · 25/10/2016 09:26

Just delurking to share this response from my MP if of interest. Thanks to RTB, Smallfox and others for all your interesting posts. I've been following since thread 1 as much as possible - you guys post a lot!

*Thank you for your email, and for sharing your concerns with me.

I want to emphasise that there is zero prospect of any European national living and working in the UK before the referendum being asked to leave. However I strongly believe we need much more clarity from
Government and I have backed motions in Parliament calling for just that.

There is no question at all about the value of migrants - European or otherwise - to this country's culture and economy. While some of those who voted for Brexit did so because they want us to have control over our borders, that is not the same as saying they wanted to block immigration or turn their backs on immigrants. They wanted control.

The process will be subjected to a great deal of Parliamentary scrutiny. Indeed we have already had a number of Ministerial statements in the House as well as a number of debates. There will be many more to come.

The Government has signaled its intention to repatriate existing EU law, and when it comes to adapting, changing or reforming those laws, the usual parliamentary process will apply. Access to the Single Market is obviously key, and I don’t think there’s any real doubt about that.

FYI only, here is a link to the most recent statement issued by David Davis MP, Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union: hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-10-10/debates/6CE5F6BB-3AA4-4332-BF7A-577DB35BDB77/NextStepsInLeavingTheEuropeanUnion

Best wishes, and thanks again for writing,

Zac Goldsmith*

GetOutMyCar · 25/10/2016 09:28

I knew nothing about the student deportations. I can't believe what this country has become. I'm so ashamed.

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 10:02

Meanwhile - in my area of expertise - price rises are starting to actually affect the future of real people:

www.channelregister.co.uk/2016/10/24/microsoft_price_rises/

There is no union-jack version of enterprise level software like Windows. Nor is there any way to change the fact that Microsoft ultimately bill in dollars.

So the question - already being asked - is how to find the money to cover that increased expense ? And it's inevitable the answer will involve some element of P45ery Sad

Oracle and Google will be next - again absolutely no "made in Britain" alternative.

Once again, none of this is any surprise.

SapphireStrange · 25/10/2016 10:20

I want to emphasise that there is zero prospect of any European national living and working in the UK before the referendum being asked to leave.

Am I mistaken or is that actually STILL far from clear? I thought May, Davis, Johnson etc were still making mealy-mouthed statements along the lines of 'other European nationals are safe here as long as we get a reciprocal deal from the rest of the EU.'?

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 10:25

I want to emphasise that there is zero prospect of any European national living and working in the UK before the referendum being asked to leave.

However, there is a prospect that employees may start to be graded on their status as UK or UK+EU nationalities. Especially as Theresa May seems hell bent on making Brexit as hard as possible.

LurkingHusband · 25/10/2016 10:38

Heathrow "expansion" "approved"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37760187

Weasel words ? Expansion /= "extra runway"
Approved /= "Agreed"

let the interesting times begin !

PattyPenguin · 25/10/2016 10:45

One of the justifications for building more runways was that more flights would be needed to, amongst other places, mega-cities in China, in order to do business there (something being touted as particularly necessary after Brexit).

BA have just cancelled their flights to one of those mega-cities, Chengdu, because not enough passengers were flying there.
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/24/ba-scraps-service-chinese-city-airport-expansion-heathrow-chengdu-decision-runway

Are we going to be using the runways? And is China going to be buying more off us?

RedToothBrush · 25/10/2016 10:53

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 1 hour ago
A source close to Zac Goldsmith MP (Con, Richmond Park) told the Sun he will resign and trigger a by-election if Heathrow is greenlit today.

I await to here from Zac again later today then....

OP posts:
Mistigri · 25/10/2016 10:56

I want to emphasise that there is zero prospect of any European national living and working in the UK before the referendum being asked to leave.

Legally I think this must be wrong, because until the terms of Brexit are finalised none of us exercising our right to FoM can be completely certain of our future status.

Practically, I think it's highly unlikely that people in work will be removed, because it would be politically dangerous and administratively complex.

OTOH, this doesn't apply to the non-EU partners of EU citizens, who are in a very uncertain position. I know there are several people in MN in this group and who are legitimately concerned.

That letter contains a number of untruths and half-truths, particularly on the subject of parliamentary scrutiny. Which given its author isn't in the least surprising.

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