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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
16
MagikarpetRide · 04/11/2016 07:20

Dominick Raab is on the BBC at the moment complaining that the 'die hard remaign' campaign can now derail things.

Why should they be forgotten though? The same as if the vote had gone the other way, people should be forcing the government to look at the concerns of those who voted leave and try to do something about those concerns. They're meant to govern the people, not just a group of people who ticked the 'correct' box.

GloriaGaynor · 04/11/2016 09:12

The Diehard Leave campaign have derailed our entire economy. But that's ok because the 'people' are involved.

GloriaGaynor · 04/11/2016 09:12

Has not have ^

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 09:52

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy

  1. Of course the tabloid attacks on the judiciary are upsetting and unpleasant, but it should not prompt an equal but opposite overreaction.
  2. If anything, the front page splashes show that the constitution is working. It is a feature and not a bug.
  3. The judges knew full well that they would have this sort of treatment, but they gave the judgment fearlessly anyway.
  4. Nothing can now change that it is unlawful for PM to act without parliamentary approval (pending appeal). However loud the headline.
  5. Some are suggesting legal action against the papers, but this would be misconceived and illiberal itself. Would create new problems.
  6. Screaming headlines about the judiciary stopping the executive getting its way without parliament is the sound of a constitution working.
  7. The sound sometimes is not a nice one, but it means the executive has been stopped from simply getting its way without parliament.

/ends

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RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 10:15

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson
Peter Whittle quits UKIP leadership race (getting 80% of his deposit back). So it's Paul Nuttall v Suzanne Evans v gay donkey man.

medium.com/@SamuelMarcLowe/will-exiting-the-eu-spark-a-uk-trade-bonanza-5c66d3c57911#.iow21cpys
Will exiting the EU spark a UK TradeBonanza?

spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/how-the-government-lost/
How the GovernmentLost

He thinks the government can win at appeal still.

news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/11/03/viewpoint-legal-analysis-todays-successful-article-50-challenge/
Viewpoint: Legal analysis of successful Article 50 challenge
Professor Michael Dougan and Dr Michael Gordon

www.administrativelawmatters.com/blog/2016/11/03/some-thoughts-on-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-european-union-2016-ewhc-2768/
Some Thoughts on R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768

www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/brexit-high-court-ruling-on-article-50-explained
Brexit: High Court ruling on Article 50 explained

Fair Oak & Horton Heath (Eastleigh) result:
LDEM: 46.0% (+6.8)
CON: 30.7% (+3.7)
UKIP: 15.9% (-6.5)
LAB: 7.3% (-4.1)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/04/we-will-achieve-brexit-even-if-it-takes-an-election-a-purge-of-t/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_Am11ZXmH37JB
We will achieve Brexit, even if it takes an election, a purge of the Europhiles or 1,000 new peers to get there
Jacob Rees-Mogg piece.

Yes this is a real headline. This sounds incredibly democratic doesn't it?! This is exactly what liberals have been afraid of. And Rees-Moog has always been one of the poster boy for that fear.

Exceedingly Unseelie ‏@der_bluthund
What's the difference between Great Britain and Turkey? GB hasn't started jailing its judges yet...

I don't go that far, but when you see headlines like that, you do wonder. Same rhethoric about defending democracy.

www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/04/david-olusoga-interview-black-history?CMP=twt_gu
David Olusoga: ‘There’s a dark side to British history, and we saw a flash of it this summer’

The writer and broadcaster on reassessing black history and the fallout from the Brexit vote

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-article-50_uk_581c5bcbe4b0c2e24aaf35b1?
Theresa May Responds To Article 50 High Court Ruling

Spoof.

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Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 11:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 04/11/2016 11:30

He's not happy that the government wants to bypass parliament.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 11:32

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RBeer · 04/11/2016 11:33

Sort of. He wanted a soft Brexit. Not a hard one.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 04/11/2016 11:38

That makes more sense.
Not good for the government.

whatwouldrondo · 04/11/2016 11:41

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/04/stephen-phillips-resigns-over-undemocratic-brexit-process?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I remember reading something he had written about his constituency, one of the highest leave votes in the country, that was very balanced and fair recognising the contributions made by EU citizens as well as the problems with the attrition as a result of austerity on resources such as doctor's surgeries, he was campaigning to reopen a couple that had closed when the doctors had retired for want of anyone to replace them. I can't find it on google.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 11:45

Edward Harkins ‏@EdwardHarkins
Brexit gets even messier - Tory Stephen Phillips QC MP quits as MP over 'irreconcilable policy differences with UK Govt

Wow. He was a LEAVE supporter. Not a Remainer.

Just wow.

What policy differences you have to wonder. Leaky leaky. Stuff has come out the Cabinet he does not like.

2015 election result

Con - Stephen Phillips
34805
56.19%
Lab - Jason Pandya-Wood
10690
17.26%
UKIP - Steven Hopkins
9716
14.02%
LD - Matthew Holden
3500
5.65%

Safe Tory seat. Area was 60.1% leave.

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Gumpendorf · 04/11/2016 11:47

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/we-voted-brexit-keep-parliament-sovereign-wont-be-gagged

Stephen Phillips wrote this. He seems like the sort of MP we need in the House right now.

If it's tough for him as a reasonable leave voter in a Leave seat, imagine how it must feel to be a Remainer on the government benches right now.

dudleymcdudley · 04/11/2016 11:50

6. Screaming headlines about the judiciary stopping the executive getting its way without parliament is the sound of a constitution working.

No actually I don't think it is. It is the sound of vested interests deliberately manipulating their vast readership to misunderstand how the constitution works. They are playing on the fact that our current generations of adults have been educated to be almost totally ignorant of the role of Parliament and the judiciary.

A properly functioning constitution would at least have a population that supports its basic principles.

HalleLouja · 04/11/2016 12:19

Oh dear he really does seem like the type of Leave MP we needed.

MagikarpetRide · 04/11/2016 12:28

I never thought I'd find myself saying this about a leave MP but he's going to be a sad miss. I'd rather a level headed leaver than a power hungry remainer turned hard Brexit advocate any day

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 12:39

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-nissan-aston-martin-car-industry-faces-decline-a7397061.html
Brexit: UK car industry faces 'death by a thousand cuts', industry leader warns
British car exporters could face tariffs of up to 10% if Britain failed to conclude a free trade deal with the rest of the EU

Questions about the long term future of the car industry are not going away even after Nissan's commitment.

www.ft.com/content/86be93c0-a1e1-11e6-82c3-4351ce86813f
Court has undermined Theresa May’s Brexit approach
The decision gives parliamentarians a say on Article 50, writes David Allen Green

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37873161?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Those Bastard Remain errrr Leave supporters Wales are now wading into the a50 litigate stating it has profound implications for their devolved assembly.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/04/stephen-phillips-resigns-over-undemocratic-brexit-process
Stephen Phillips. Not clear if he will stand as an independent at by election.

voteleaveuk.com/2016/11/03/if-parliament-votes-against-article-50-operation-beacon-will-begin-immediately-to-enforce-brexit/
Operation Beacon. The campaign to enforce Brexit.

We are slipping into chaos slowly but surely.

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RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 12:47

Judges v Journos.

1 v 0

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 12:58

John Slinger ‏@JohnSlinger
I hear many Tory Brexiteers bemoaning the possible influence of "unelected House of Lords". Are these the same MPs who opposed Lords reform?

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229020/8077.pdf
House of Lords Reform Bill 2012/2013

Supposed by Nick Clegg as part of the Coalition agreement.

Why it was blocked
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19463780
The government was forced to abandon moves towards a largely elected Lords, championed by the Lib Dems, after nearly 100 Conservative MPs refused to support the plans.

This led to a row between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, with Mr Clegg accusing Prime Minister David Cameron of refusing to deliver on a key part of the parties' coalition agreement.

Oh.

Bollocks.

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HalleLouja · 04/11/2016 13:10

Government ministers/ politicians generally fair even worse than Journos.....

HummusForBreakfast · 04/11/2016 13:35

I wish that newspapers would actually pull everyone politicians on those discrepancies.
Yes most of the public will not remember the conservatives MP position regarding the Lords.
But there are too many of these turn around 'because that's what the public wants to hear' OR ' it will give me votes' and it becomes impossible to know WHAT these people are actually defending.
Even on the whole idea of Brexit, you can do s full turn around like the PM Hmm
And then we wonder why people and businesses are unsettled??
Seriously we are becoming the laughing stock of the EU.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 13:50

FWIW one of the reasons I didn't go into journalism was I did not want to end up doing that type of journalism. Nor did I want to spend (anymore) time with people who did. I was very disillusioned by what I saw twenty years ago, and the blind naked ambition and the lengths to which my fellow students were prepared to go to, to have that career. I just didn't have it in me. Journalists were doing the same as politicians - doing anything to get noticed and serve the master.

Of course that's unfair on the few very good and very principled journalists out there. But the culture puts that type of person off entering journalism thus making it ever more poisonous.

Its exactly the same problem just in a different field.

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick
The sense I get about Stephen Phillips quitting is growing anger over his party, the Government, the Brexit campaign & politics in general

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Judging by today's No10 lobby briefing this comment by @jesse_norman counts as disloyalty and shd be slapped down

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 14:01

The Shadow Justice Secretary has called on Liz Truss to speak out against the hysteria promoted by the tabloids and Mail, Express etc.

The article ends with this snippet: "The prime minister’s spokesman refused to condemn the language used, saying: “I don’t think the British judiciary is being undermined.”

No wonder the Mail and Express think this is okay.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 14:05

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
A second source now says that Jeremy Wright and his team are getting "vast criticism" by No10 ppl for "cocking this up" on A50

Attorney General cocking it up. Not No10.

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TheNorthRemembers · 04/11/2016 14:12

OK, so I am obviously a foreigner / former immigrant. Don't they teach some kind of constitutional law / politics in schools in England (my DS is too young for me to know yet)? Why do people keep going on about judges being unelected? Has noone ever heard of checks and balances and the various branches of government? Why has everyone turned into Trump?