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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 23:04

Not sure whether this has been done already, but you gotta love this quote from Boris:

Boris Johnson has said Britain will make a “Titanic success of Brexit”

Apparently George Osborne responded, "It sank". Quite.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/brexit-will-be-titanic-success-says-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_link

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 23:05

That is my secret hope TheBathroomSink. Her cover story in the meantime is just a little too convincing for my liking.

GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 23:16

They may get a higher number or they may get fewer. There are a lot of pissed off Tory Remainers.

An election would see off Corbyn, and if he's replaced by Starmer, the Tories will have a proper opposition.

GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 23:19

I'm not convinced that any sane politician would talk hard Brexit, the EU into defence mode, and the pound into nosedive if they didn't mean it.

Of course this may mean she's insane.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 23:33

Gibbonsdown (Vale of Glamorgan):
LAB: 47.9% (-2.2)
PC: 19.1% (+14.3)
IND: 13.4% (+13.4)
CON: 12.3% (+5.6)
UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4)
LD: 0.8% (+0.8)
LAB Hold

Hoxton West (Hackney) result:
LAB: 68.3% (+11.6)
CON: 13.3% (+1.2)
LDEM: 9.6% (+3.2)
GRN: 8.8% (-11.3)
Lab Hold

Grangetown (Cardiff) result:
PC: 41.1% (+7.7)
LAB: 37.1% (-3.1)
CON: 10.2% (+3.3)
LDEM: 6.6% (-4.6)
UKIP: 5.0% (+5.0)
PC GAIN

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GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 23:36

The Hoxton result is very interesting.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 23:39

Sorry, why is Hoxton interesting? I notice though that despite the press talking down Corbyn and Labour for more than a year now, they have been doing OK ish in local elections - losing some, but mostly keeping them.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 23:46

Green vote has gone Labour.

Unsurprised. Green vote traditionally the 'moral choice'. Corbyn has been taking that ground.

Rainham Central (Medway) result:
CON: 61.1% (+9.9)
UKIP: 16.4% (-5.2)
LAB: 13.5% (-2.9)
LDEM: 5.8% (+5.8)
GRN: 2.6% (-5.2)
EDEM: 0.6% (+0.6)

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GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 23:53

Because a Labour gain of 11 may happen across other London boroughs.

I thought they may have lost some but they didn't.

GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 23:58

Or rather if it happened

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 23:59

Interesting to see UKIP votes going down, but then not, because the Tory Party is now increasingly being nicknamed BlueKip.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 00:04

Burnley Central East (Lancashire) result:
LAB: 68.9% (+10.7)
LDEM: 14.1% (-1.4)
UKIP: 12.7% (-6.7)
GRN: 4.3% (+4.3)

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RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 00:08

Gloria, in London if its a Labour area they are gaining on just about every council seat that comes up in a by election at the moment.

Labour are holding firm in the NW and NE for the most part. They are losing in Wales to PC.

The SW and Oxfordshire areas are going LD.

The South East is staying strongly CON for the most part.

The East of England is going blue, but staying with UKIP where they have got a foothold already.

There hasn't been much in the Midlands that's come up so I can't really describe a pattern.

These patterns are getting really distinct and consistent now.

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GloriaGaynor · 04/11/2016 00:15

Hackney had one of the highest Remain majorities in the country and I thought Labour may be 'punished' for Corbyn.

Peregrina · 04/11/2016 00:15

Strangely though Red none of this is yet reflected in the National polls, which still show the Tories miles ahead.

I agree with the poster who said that there are a lot of pissed off Tory Remainers, who maybe stay at home rather than actively vote for another party. Which is definitely what happened in Witney, I believe.

GloriaGaynor · 04/11/2016 00:17

That was me Grin

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 00:30

This is brilliant

fleetstreetfox ‏@fleetstreetfox
Fuckssake. The hysterical frothing about this court case is protozoacally dim. #bbcqt
Do I really have to fucking explain why this is not a constitutional crisis?
Right. Look. There are three things in charge of the country - judiciary, legislature and executive (the govt).
Neither one of them is boss. Each checks the other two. Thus you have a balance between law, people and power.
Today the law checked the executive. The govt wanted to do a thing when and how it felt, on the basis of a vote about two words.
That's TWO WORDS.
The law said hang on. You can't do a very complex thing based on two words. Others need to check the detail. The govt must show its sums.
This, so far, is EXACTLY how things have worked in the U.K. for 1,000 years.
The govt on the other hand says NO FACK ORF WE KNOW BEST BECAUSE VOTE.
The trouble with that argument is it means any future govt could say, there was an election, we won, and now no-one can scrutinise us.
It would effectively end the existence of Parliament altogether. What use is it if it cannot comment and vote on laws presented by the govt?
That, right there, would be tyranny. We would vote in a govt and all the other MPs would do something else for 5yrs. This would be BAD.
Imagine a party that suggested cutting the deficit but didn't specify how. Then forming a coalition and introducing student fees.
Or cutting disability benefits while protecting pensions. No opposition, no checking by the Lords, no tweaks, no amendments.
Just laws, handed down from on high. A bit like, ooh, a dictatorship.
It is worth remembering at this point dictators are VERY POPULAR AT THE START, AND LESS SO AFTER THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES.
Now Brexit is complex. Single markets, tariffs, deals, the Disgraced Liam Fox's inevitable downfall. And everyone needs it to go WELL.
The way you get the executive to do things right is for everyone else to check their homework and point out errors before they hand it in.
That is ALL the case is about. Not overturning the referendum, not handing us to the Germans like trussed sows. Scrutiny, that's all.
Without it we are left with a deal agreed by a shoe-centric Girl Guide who fucked the prisons, a disgraced GP, a constant rebel and Boris.
You might think they'll do a good job. History shows they probably won't. And just in case, it'd be best all round if they let mother see.
The referendum isn't being overturned because not enough MPs if any will be prepared to risk a £74k-a-yr cushy job for the sake of a ruckus.
The deal is merely, hopefully, going to be scrutinised so that it's RIGHT. Those telling you it's the end times are idiots, liars or both.
They just want to wind you up into being angry so you force your own Parliament into not scrutinising them. Which is sneaky, isn't it?
The only constitutional crisis here is if you buy their bullcrap. Not scrutinising the executive is V V V V BAD.
So everyone CHILL. The courts doing this shows the balance is working.
It also shows, ironically, that all the Leave arguments about parliamentary sovereignty and giving U.K. courts primacy were A BAG O' SHITE.
Allen Green replied to this line: Technical legal language, but essentially correct.
If you still don't like the way the Brexit cookie is crumbling, you can always appeal to the European Court of Justice. I dare you.
And if you can't read that and calm down then frankly you can fuck right off because you're making my farts hurt.

FFS. 52% of a 72% turnout is 37% of voters. And 17m people is 26% of the nation voting to Leave. #maths
And no I'm not a lawyer. That diatribe was a the result of NCTJ journalist training in public affairs at Stradbroke College in Sheffield.
And that, children, shows the best way to get a responsible press is to fucking TEACH IT THIS SHIT not hire graduates or Untrained Hopkins.
As I told Brian Leveson, only he wouldn't fucking listen the silly tit.

[Somedays I have a bit of a crush on Susie Boniface when she writes stuff like this]

Kingswood with Burgh Heath (Reigate) result:
CON: 73.3% (+6.6)
UKIP: 13.5% (-8.1)
LAB: 8.4% (-3.3)
GRN: 4.8% (+4.8)
CON hold

Longlevens (Gloucester) result:
CON: 46.2% (+3.7)
LDEM: 36.9% (+23.7)
LAB: 9.7% (-8.2)
UKIP: 7.2% (-6.6)
Con Hold (but ooo look at that 23% up for the LDs)

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whatwouldrondo · 04/11/2016 00:55

Sun headline tomorrow, the tabloids have really jumped the shark in the last few days, a bit of power gone to their heads? The Daily Mail did seem to realise they had gone too far by pulling their "Activist judge, openly gay former Olympic rower " headline fromtjeir online site. The man from Pimlico plumbers (who incidentally has the best OTT Christmas decorations outside Asia on his building cheering up the workers travelling out of Waterloo and so can do no wrong in my eyes ) must be fuming.....

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
whatwouldrondo · 04/11/2016 01:21

Green Party candidate's reasons for standing aside to work with the libdems in Richmond Park richmondandtwickenham.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/11/03/andree-statement/

Peregrina · 04/11/2016 01:35

I just wish that the Greens and Labour had stood aside in Witney. Sigh. As a quid pro quo, the Lib Dems should do the same in seats where Labour has the best chance.

Most Green policies are ones I agree with, but under the present system they will get nowhere.

BestIsWest · 04/11/2016 06:09

I am very heartened to see Plaid doing well in Cardiff. Much better for the Labour vote to go to Plaid than UKIP in Wales. And I say that as a Labour member ( with a sneaking admiration for Leanne Wood)

Mistigri · 04/11/2016 06:13

I've made a thread about the tabloid front pages today on AIBU, please pile in:

Http:www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2772321-To-think-the-right-wing-tabloids-have-gone-too-far?

I'm opening a book on how long it takes for a thread that I made explicitly NOT about brexit takes to be moved.

Mistigri · 04/11/2016 06:37

Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

That's David Davies MP on Twitter (not David Davis, but his two figure IQ namesake from Monmouth).

It makes you wonder whether parliamentary candidates should be obliged to sit some sort of basic test of their knowledge of how British parliamentary democracy works.

Unicornsarelovely · 04/11/2016 07:03

I've piled misti.

Is there some way of pointing out to stupid Mr Davies that power to the people didn't tend to work out too well for the elite of which an MP is definitely one. First up against the wall in the revolution and all that...

I'm also going to complain to the press regulator and will add comment on the disgraceful behaviour of the right wing press into my reminder to my MP.

MagikarpetRide · 04/11/2016 07:04

Beginning to look like the Torys are getting their wish though in those places they've held, taking vote off UKIP which is really what this entire thing was all about.