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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 16:13

Cameron was completely clear that he would trigger Article 50 without consulting Parliament and, if the legality of this was ever questioned, it wasn't a questioned very widely or very loudly. Nobody minded when it didn't look likely. That's what gives leavers basis to twitch about stitch-ups now I think.

I think Cameron might have promised something that it was not in his power to promise. He was just a Prime Minister, powerful yes, but still subject to our democratic constitution. I don't think we want to make our country's leader more powerful than they already are, for bigger reasons than the Brexit fiasco (bad as it is), and am surprised that those arguing for it can't see the obvious nefarious consequences.

Kaija · 03/11/2016 16:15

I'd quite like to hear from David Davis at this point. He was fighting the use of the Royal Prerogative for years, so I'm guessing this is a happy day for him Grin

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 16:19

I'd quite like never to hear from David Davis again.

dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 16:24

Ah ok sorry manon I misunderstood.

Yes I agree Stripey, this should be a reassuring day for anyone who cares about constitutional checks and balances and controls on executive power.

Unfortunately large parts of our press don't seem to believe in these things and I imagine they will be encouraging their readers to see this ruling in the worst possible light.

HummusForBreakfast · 03/11/2016 16:37

The press is actually a REALLY big issue fur democracy in the uk.
A shame that TM didn't want to look at that.

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 16:38

My fault dudley it wasn't particularly clear.

Kaija · 03/11/2016 16:46

Well, Manon, given the choice, I'd have to agree with you

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 16:58

There is one way the government could potentially win a50 appeal.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
My guess - Govt would win if admits reversibility. Would totally transform Brexit politics & diplomacy though. Tusk told me was reversible

This requires the referral to the ECJ
eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/brexit-can-ecj-get-involved.html

I think this totally politically unfeasible for the same reasons that May apparently does not want an early GE before a50 triggered.

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 17:02

Chatting with MrsLH at lunch, about reversibility, and being a laughing stock ...but if the UK were to re-evaluate Brexit, and back pedal, it would actually mark us out - almost alone in the world - as the more mature democracy we keep telling the world we are.

Or is it better to reign in hell than serve in heaven ?

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 17:05

Yes, agreed on article 50 reversibility. That is the key to this and absolutely it will require referral to the ECJ.

If article 50 is found to be reversible, that could of course be potentially much more destabilising for the government than simply needing to consult parliament to invoke it. With a reversible article 50, if parliament should not like the look of the government's Brexit plan at any time, a vote of no confidence would surely be on the cards.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 17:40

Stripey and Lurking, that's pretty much exactly the reason the government are unlikely to refer to the ECJ as the threat of a no confidence vote is so high.

The claimants have no reason to refer to the ECJ (and Jo Maugham has stated they will not).

If the ECJ do come into it, then it will come from another party. (Perhaps a Scottish challenge at some point?).

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-latest-nigel-farage-updates-ukip-article-50-parliament-huge-anger-political-a7395006.html
Brexit legal challenge: Nigel Farage says Parliament has ‘no idea what anger they will provoke’ if Article 50 blocked

heatst.com/life/listen-george-osbornes-hilarious-speech-at-the-spectator-awards/?mod=sm_tw_post
George Osborne's much praised speech from the Spectator Award from last night. He got £100,000 for it.

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 18:18

Brexit legal challenge: Nigel Farage says Parliament has ‘no idea what anger they will provoke’ if Article 50 blocked

when johnny comes marching home again
he's coming by bus or underground
a woman's eye will shed a tear
to see his face so beaten in fear
an' it was just around the corner in the english civil war

might appeal to the man whose choice of songs on Desert Island Discs included "Pressure Drop" from the same album ....

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 18:21

www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2016/11/03/news/sinn-fein-refuses-to-say-if-it-will-vote-against-brexit-in-house-of-commons-768823/?param=ds441rif44T
Sinn Fein refuses to say if it will vote against Brexit in House of Commons

Its easy to say "no we will not reverse policy" if it was a direct question. I do note the lack of direct quote that relates to the headline which makes me wonder if it is purely just a newspaper trying to spin it. My head says that's the case and there is nothing to see here really.

That said, the way the article is phrased by an Irish newspaper suggests that voting against Brexit in the Commons could be being considered as a possible option and potentially regarded as in the Irish national interest to do so. Certainly it could be spun that way. If this IS the case, its a big deal.

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RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 18:34

www.indy100.com/article/mp-brexit-vote-article-50-high-court-parliament-trigger-eu-referendum-latest-7395451
The MPs who need to think very, very carefully about their Brexit vote

Interactive Map.

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TheBathroomSink · 03/11/2016 18:43

George Osborne's much praised speech from the Spectator Award from last night. He got £100,000 for it.

I thought he'd got £100k in total for his public speaking in the last couple of months, not just the one?

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 19:32

It might well be TBS. I stand corrected.

mlexmarketinsight.com/editors-picks/mays-brexit-plans-complicated-high-court-ruling/
May’s Brexit plans complicated by High Court ruling

Its not just her timetable that's shagged. The 'Great' Repeal Bill might be affected by the constitutional arguments...

Tonights by-elections

Banff and District, Aberdeenshire
SNP (likely stay SNP)

Inverurie and District, Aberdeenshire
LD (possible change to SNP due to local circumstances)

Burnley Central East
LAB (likely strong hold)

Grangetown, Cardiff
LAB (suspect Plaid might sneak it. Is Lab/Plaid marginal)

Gibbonsdown, Vale of Glamorgan
LAB (Lab hold)

Longlevens, Gloucester city
CON (This is the one to watch out for tonight. If there is a large swing like in other similar areas, the LD might take)

Fair Oak and Horton Heath
LD (strong LD hold)

Hoxton West, Hackney
LAB (Lab hold)

Kingswood with Burgh Heath, Reigate and Banstead council, Surrey
CON (and staying strongly Con)

Rainham Central, Medway council
CON (Con hold. Expect UKIP losses)

Some European POV / Historical context links

carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=64859
NATO, the EU, and the Curse of Suez

About our relationship with France.

www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/save-europe-reverse-brexit-by-anatole-kaletsky-2016-09?referrer=/rs9ZqTCPvm
Saving Europe By Reversing Brexit

Seems to suggest that the only way to save Europe is to get the UK back. That's an another interpretation of the UK's bargaining position...

warontherocks.com/2016/10/britain-and-the-fate-of-the-europe-we-know/
Britain and the Fate of the Europe We Know

www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/
The Death of British Business

A US view of Brexit

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch
the court's judgement is not about #Brexit but about PM vs Parliament. Viewed correctly it is FOR the sovereignty of the people of the UK.

Bob Neill ‏@neill_bob (MP for Bromley & Chislehurst and Chairman of the Justice Select Committee)
Extraordinary news that Govt ignored it's own study showing a new runway at Gatwick more beneficial to UK residents than one at Heathrow!
And only a 1% costs overrun at Heathrow wipes out the supposed overall benefits! Anyone think that's not going to happen? (And the rest...)

Oh dear. Can wait to see more on this one...

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RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 19:39

Tonight's QT Panel in Watford.

Sajid Javid (CON)
Lisa Nandy (LAB)
Charlie Wolf (Broadcaster)
Huey Morgan (Musician and DJ)
Zanny Minton Beddoes (The Economist)

Arron Banks was earlier down to appear. He's dropped out.
I guess he's too busy with flogging his book today to appear.

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TheElementsSong · 03/11/2016 19:43

Arron Banks was earlier down to appear.

He probably wanted to appear triumphantly on the back of a government win in court. Can I suggest he's a big chick-chick-chick-chick-chicken?

Kaija · 03/11/2016 19:49

Thank god Arron Banks has dropped out. I don't think I could have taken it.

Which one is his replacement?

SwedishEdith · 03/11/2016 20:00

Oo, I've got a Remain MP in a Remain area...in a marginal seat.

SwedishEdith · 03/11/2016 20:29

Is Louise Mensch's tweet actually, er, reasonable? Shock

It's rather confusing that there are 2 clowns called David Davi(e)s but David without an e was on C4 news tonight talking about "the people" just wanting "us" to get on with it. I'm getting really sick and tired of 52% (or 51.9%) now representing "the people". I know I'm not saying anything new on this but I do think this is one of the key points I'm going to keep making to my MP.

whatwouldrondo · 03/11/2016 20:51

On the interview I saw he actually claimed Brexit had the largest mandate from the people in history.......--never mind that the people have only voted on an issue in a referendum three times Hmm

TheBathroomSink · 03/11/2016 20:51

Is Louise Mensch's tweet actually, er, reasonable?

She's probably been hacked...

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 20:53

Is Louise Mensch's tweet actually, er, reasonable?

Yep. That's why I posted.

peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/the-brexit-fallout-is-all-part-of.html
The Brexit fallout is all part of the process

Pete North blog. Lots in there. More sensible and realistic than most things I've seen from Leave POV.

He picks this point out:
One thing the public is not going to tolerate is cuts to the NHS, they will expect most provisions to carry on as normal and will not be in any great hurry to absorb more financial pressures.

I don't rule out a surprise boost to the NHS coffers in Hammond's Autumn Statement later this month. It would be good way to keep people happy.

Leave.Eu just cranked up the propaganda machine again. Guess Banks decided he had work on tonight:

LEAVE.EU ‏@LeaveEUOfficial
The Great Betrayal Begins. #Brexit
with picture of referendum leaflet with "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".

Daniel Hannan tweeted the same earlier. He got roasted for promises on buses not being legally binding either.

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GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 20:58

I've a Remain cabinet MP in a 75% Remain area, not marginal, but Labour before 2010. Going on strength of feeling round here, if she doesn't stand by Remain she could be toast. But if she does, obviously her cabinet position will be over.

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