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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 21:03

Mark Broad ‏@markabroad
Mark Carney tells @bbckamal that he won't stay on as Governor of the Bank beyond 2019 even if #Article50 is delayed by court case

I think this is the moment we all go FUUUUCCCKKKKK.

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BestIsWest · 03/11/2016 21:05

I've got a Remain Tory with a majority of 27 over Labour in a constituency where 53% voted Remain (according to the spreadsheet posted earlier).

Will be interesting to see how he votes, though he has yet to go against the Government on anything.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 21:25

I have a Remain MP in a strongly Remain constituency, one who only squeaked in after a dirty campaign against the Lib Dems in 2010. She too could be toast, if she forgets how her constituency voted.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 21:35

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/theresa-may-concedes-triggering-article-50-will-need-act-of-parliament?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Court ruling means act of parliament would be needed for Brexit, says May
PM says logical conclusion of decision is that legislation would be required to trigger article 50, but government plans to appeal

The government has said it will appeal against Thursday’s unexpected high court ruling, which stated that MPs needed to vote on triggering article 50. Downing Street has insisted it will stick to the timetable of invoking article 50 before the end of March 2017.

and
May has requested a phone call with the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, on Friday morning, in which she will reassure him that the government is continuing with its plans and sticking to the timetable set out at the European council. She is also expected to seek to reassure other key EU figures, including the council president, Donald Tusk.

She isn't? Is she?
Seriously considering the ECJ route. I do believe she might well be!

Tis the only explanation for such a confident response about Mar 2017.

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BestIsWest · 03/11/2016 21:41

I seem to be going FUUUUUUUUCCCCKKKKk on a daily basis.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 21:44

I didn't think the High Court ruling was all that unexpected. I think people knew that the Government had put up a poor case.

Go to the ECJ? Irony of ironies. But aren't they slow and sclerotic so won't be able to do it within the timeframe she wants?

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 21:51

From IT News:

High Court Brexit ruling could trigger early general election

^Prime Minister Theresa May could be left with "no choice" but to hold an early general election following the High Court's ruling on Article 50.

The ruling states the Government requires Parliament's consent to start the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.

The Government are set to appeal the decision in the Supreme Court just before Christmas.

But ITV News Political Editor Robert Peston said it was "very likely" it would reject the Government's appeal.

This would then force the Government to put Article 50 legislation to the Lords and the House of Commons.

Sources from 10 Downing Street told Robert Peston the Prime Minister hands "will not be tied" by attempts by opposition parties to amend the Bill and she will fight any attempts to amend that legislation.

As a consequence, if Mrs May were to lose in the Lords and Commons, she will have "no choice but to go the country and seek a mandate in an early general election".

The future of Brexit now rests with the Supreme Court - the highest court in the land.

It came after three judges unanimously ruled Theresa May does not have the power to bypass MPs by relying on the prerogative to trigger Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union and begin the two-year period of divorce negotiations with the 27 other countries in the EU bloc.

The Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, said to do so would be contrary to "the fundamental constitutional principles of the sovereignty of Parliament".

The court rejected the Government argument that prerogative powers were a legitimate way to give effect "to the will of the people" who voted by a clear majority to leave the European Union in the June referendum.

It is widely expected that 11 Supreme Court justices will sit between December 5 and 8 to hear what is one of the most important constitutional cases in generations.^

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 21:52

ITV News

I wonder what the result might be of a general election early next year.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 21:57

Since it's not about stopping Brexit, but more about being seen to do it in accordance with our Parliamentary democracy, I doubt if few will vote against it. So May isn't likely to lose a vote of confidence.

I do wonder just exactly how long she will last, because her stubborn attitude is alienating people when we are in sore need of someone who can bring about reconciliation. Having said that, the field of prospective replacements is extremely lacking.

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 22:07

I agree Peregrina, but I do think that MPs could legitimately require amendments to the vote.

For example, MPs might require the government to ascertain whether article 50 is reversible by the issuer, prior to using it. This would be a reasonable step, and certainly it could aid the UK government's hand in negotiations if staying, rather than WTO rules, remains possible should no deal be agreed at the end of the two year period.

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 22:08

It effectively could be said to add an extra card to our negotiating hand if we know we can revoke article 50.

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 22:10

An alternative type of amendment might be that article 50 may be invoked by the government on the basis only that it then seeks to remain a part of the single market.

Or the Commons could require both. Or something different entirely.

3amEternal · 03/11/2016 22:13

why are the government so afraid of parliament being involved? Surely better for all to have the support of parliament early on?

GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 22:22

Because they know full well they may not get the support they require.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 22:24

Because they know full well they may not get the support they require.

But then if they don't, they lose a vote of Confidence, have an election, and win comfortably, if the polls are correct, and then do have a mandate.

3amEternal · 03/11/2016 22:24

Surely worse later on to exclude parliament then cock it all up and be left solely holding the blame?

GloriaGaynor · 03/11/2016 22:26

Absolutely, another poster above made the same point.

Without parliamentary support the cabinet alone will be responsible for a debacle.

ClashCityRocker · 03/11/2016 22:37

Can I ask a possibly stupid question?

Why would a general election mean it wouldn't have to go through parliament? I don't see how it would give them a stronger mandate than the referendum result.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 22:44

A GE would mean that they had to put it the sort of Brexit they envisaged in a manifesto. Assuming the Tories won on a hard Brexit ticket, it would still have to be voted on, but we would then know what people had voted for. At the moment, we only know what people voted against.

At the moment, seeing the rhetoric coming out from the Leave camp and Mrs May and her cabinet, it does seem that a majority voted against immigration.

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 22:45

Hi Clash. I think the idea is that a different make up of parliament post a general election might provide a different result when asked to vote on the article 50 question.

Of course, we don't know that for sure, and a general election would certainly be a gamble for Theresa May.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 22:46

Parliament asks difficult questions. It will not matter if the government has a higher number of MPs. Leavers have different priorities and concerns to the other leavers.

Even a bigger mandate will not stop that. Not on this issue. Too many people want a say...

It won't solve May's problem.

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ClashCityRocker · 03/11/2016 22:52

Ah thanks for explaining. I think I agree, it's not going to help May much.

I'm surprised no one seemed to consider this before the referendum....mind you, very little seems to have been considered before the referendum.

StripeyMonkey1 · 03/11/2016 22:56

Yes, not problem solved by having a higher number of MPs, but maybe ameliorated?

As a separate point, at a fundamental level, I really struggle to understand why Theresa May wants a hard Brexit. Is it a cover for the government to seize more power for itself? The price of the country is so high. What is the real motive here?

TheBathroomSink · 03/11/2016 22:59

Lisa Nandy is doing a good job of pointing out some of the many bad choices made around the way the referendum was set up and run on QT. Making good case for why parliament needs to be involved.

TheBathroomSink · 03/11/2016 23:02

I'm still not convinced that she does want a hard brexit. I think if she could find a way out that didn't make leavers feel like they'd lost, she would take it and I think there is still some element of playing for time.

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