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Brexit
Original poster

Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

649 replies

twofingerstoGideon · 19/10/2016 16:23

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 22/10/2016 13:14

I agree that we need a real debate, but that won't happen until remainers decide to

What does that mean?

It's very hard to have a debate when there is absolutely no consensus on what Leave is supposed to look like

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:14

smallfox2002

Its 75% of those that could be bothered to vote not 75% of all 18 - 24 year olds that where eligible to vote.

It makes a huge difference to the numbers.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:15

Bearbehind

It means that they have to stop blaming people and start being proactive.

smallfox2002 · 22/10/2016 13:16

Oh and I don't blame the remain campaign for the vote.

I blame leave all the way. Their entire campaign was based on Post Truth arguments, promising all sorts of specific groups that their vested interests would be a priority, even when there were conflicts within that. Making huge appeals to emotion throughout the campaign, stoking fear regarding the impact of immigration and telling people the NHS would be better off.

I also blame certain sections of the media who for years have published scare stories regarding the EU and imigration too.

The future within the EU, the safety of jobs and the economy was well put by the remain campaign, but if your going to use facts and be accurate its very hard to beat the person selling rainbows and unicorns.

Peregrina · 22/10/2016 13:18

Theresa May's whole tone is 'You will do this, because I say so'. It is her job to get a good deal for the country, but others would argue that a more consensual and conciliatory tone could be more effective. I don't know why the onus on the Remainers to decide to ... whatever, they had to do. It's up to the Leavers to lead the way. They got the vote they wanted, and some are now in Government, so let's see them get on with it.

Bearbehind · 22/10/2016 13:18

It means that they have to stop blaming people and start being proactive

Remainers are long past blaming people and are crying out for the opportunity to dicuss how are future is going to look but no one from the Leave side is coming up with any answers

Do you want to kick us off- Can you tell us what you are hoping for and why it's worth leaving the EU?

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:19

smallfox2002

And yet the leave campaign was based on the "truths" put forward by successive governments and tabloids over the last 20 - 30 years plus.

How did these 'intelligent' people believe that they could undo all of the propaganda that they have put out there in a 1 single campaign?

smallfox2002 · 22/10/2016 13:21

What truths was the leave campaign based on?

It was based on fear of immigration, giving £350 million a week to the NHS, the EU army and the fear of Turkey joining. Oh and misrepresnting the impact of the EU, whilst telling people that the EU would give us what we want.

What truths are you talking about?

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:21

Bearbehind

What makes you think that I voted leave?

Is it because I am not calling people "thick" or "racist" (as others have done)?

What I would like is for people to stop blaming each other (which you are still doing) and get on with it.

prettybird · 22/10/2016 13:22

Boney - if you're going to use hat argument, you can't then claim that a majority voted FOR Leave Confused

smallfox2002 · 22/10/2016 13:24

We don't have to "get on with it" we can debate it as much as we like.

Called democracy.

Bearbehind · 22/10/2016 13:25

Even if you didn't vote Leave, if you want people to move on you must have an idea of what we'll move on to.

Wishy washy waffle about 'blame' is a bit pointless really

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:27

prettybird

I never have done.

smallfox2002

I didn't say that you "have to get on with it", I said that I was what I would like to happen, but wouldn't it be better to debate the future instead of the past?

TheElementsSong · 22/10/2016 13:27

When it was only about 33%.

This is the original zombie post-truth pseudo-fact that Just. Won't. Die.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Summary: The gleefully oft-quoted low turnout of young people, with the subtext that those lazy brats deserve what's coming to them, was never true. It was based as far as anyone can tell on a tweet by Sky which estimated turnout using other elections without ever investigating what happened with this referendum.

By all means discuss all the ways in which young people are ghastly, or Remainers are too posh, but Please Not This Again.

Bearbehind · 22/10/2016 13:30

but wouldn't it be better to debate the future instead of the past?

Please show me where anyone from the Leave side is up for debating the future?

From what I've seen they just clam up and say it'll all be fine - end of conversation.

jaws5 · 22/10/2016 13:32

According to the leavers I know, I just have to "relax" and "calm down" as all is under control and a bright, prosperous future awaits. The problem is, when I ask for details they just repeat...

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:33

TheElementsSong

So your new found figures are based on 2002 people asked after the event, they are equally "post-truth pseudo-fact".

Summary: they are lies, damned lies and statistics.

I will discuss what I please, if you don't like it don't respond.

Kaija · 22/10/2016 13:33

Elements, thank you for posting that about the 18-24 voters - I was wondering wearily whether I could summon up the energy to dig it out Grin

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:36

Bearbehind

Show me where either side has tried to debate, it seems to always in a slanging match based on the stereotypes from either side.

jaws5

As far as I can see, no-one has any answers because no-one (from either) side is prepared to talk about it.

InformalRoman · 22/10/2016 13:37

BoneyBackJefferson

By your reasoning then only 37% of people voted to leave.

Guess what - it makes an even bigger difference to the numbers.

smallfox2002 · 22/10/2016 13:37

"So your new found figures are based on 2002 people asked after the event, they are equally "post-truth pseudo-fact".

Still a better indication of how the vote worked than your figures which were from a similar survey but on the previous election!

If you want to make big claims using data be prepared to have it challenged.

smallfox2002 · 22/10/2016 13:38

Sorry. The leave campaign should have had the answers before campaigning.

But lets be honest the leave vote is the biggest and best example of moral hazzard for a long time.

larrygrylls · 22/10/2016 13:40

I curious as to where the despairing remainers think we will end up vis a vis the eu. I think it is valid to ask them that.

I will go first in terms of scenarios:

70% probability: some small tariffs (1-3%) on some goods, many tariff free. Freedom of movement for anyone with a job offer from the eu, but not those coming on spec.

15%: After elections Europe makes substantive changes in its structure and we have another referendum,

10%: Norway

5%: breakdown in negotiations, trade on WTO terms.

Clearly just my opinion but I would like to know what smallfox, what would , kaija etc actually expect to happen.

Bearbehind · 22/10/2016 13:40

boney this whole section of MN comprises probably 90% remainers who want to talk about the future but Leavers either spout rhetoric and platitudes or say nothing and wave flags around.

It's impossible to have a debate when one side won't contribute anything.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/10/2016 13:42

InformalRoman

Never claimed otherwise.

smallfox

I am happy to have data challenged, a sample of 2002 people is hardly representative of the population as a whole.

It is neither a better or worse example.

Anyway, I will leave you all to it and wait for you on the middle ground in the hope that we can actually achieve something out of this mess.