Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

Not an awfully ordinary person.

Figment - and in the mean time while we wait for negotiations, trade deals, agreements and ratifications the 'bloids will keep the vitriol and the rhetoric ratcheted up to fever pitch to keep people on side.

The country that has a history of liberal tolerance will disappear, but don't worry we will have "taken back ontrol'".

I really need to go and find a parking thread to cheer myself up.

Morning: you should seriously think about moving. It's going to be crap here in the UK and elsewhere in the EU it will be great. They have some fabulous schools and reasonable health schemes. Houses are cheaper in many, many places on average, and if you avoid Hungary you'll probably find a government more to your liking. Honestly I would up sticks before you lose the opportunity. The kids will only benefit. We did it - it's great.

There's no downside to leaving. In fact why aren't more remainers heading out? It does make sense. Some parts of Europe are fabulous places to bring up families and your kids get to be bilingual. If I felt that strongly I'd be gone.

Bit yes, and the way things are going I predict the "bloids" blaming all huge shit hit by the fan on....the EU for "hating us"! And xenophobia will reach cartoonish proportions.

ww my kids are bilingual already, and working on their third European language. They love London, their school, friends and all the art and culture that a multicultural city like London offers. We are looking into leaving but they get very distressed each time we bring it up.

In fact why aren't more remainers heading out?

There will probably be a lag effect with respect to people leaving because it takes time to sort stuff out, and also we won't have a measure for people who might have come back to the UK from abroad but now won't be.

Well either the govt. are engaged in a cunning ruse to let a bit of shit hit the fan to avoid art 50, or they are as utterly clueless as they appear to be.

morning I think it's the latter but the end result is heading the same way as if they were cunning enough for it to be the former.

Children are quite resilient I've found. Life junctions can be distressing whether it's going up to secondary, moving classes etc. I think perhaps you're right elements: many people are making plans. It's just occurred to me that for those who are terribly distressed by brexit it's the logical move.

ww Thanks for your genuine concern!

Also this: We have never payed tax in EU, my partner is British. At the moment we would be covered by our EU health cards, but that will change once UK is out. There are many issues like this as we have built our lives as EU citizens.

We've done it five times across different countries and yes nothing matters more than the children but I found I tended to overestimate their fragility. Teenage moves are hard though.

It's just occurred to me that for those who are terribly distressed by brexit it's the logical move.

That is rather simplistic ww

just how many of the 16m who voted Remain do you think are in a position to up sticks and move to another country.

Generally speaking, those with the ability, skills and funds to do so would be the biggest losses to the UK too.

That not exactly an ideal solution is it?

There are plenty of lower income earners who move around the EU. And who are entitled to any help that the people of that country get. Of course that shouldn't stop them. They should be reassured by other countries that they are welcome.

ww I'm not sure if you're being deliberately goady again - you know full well that no one knows how 'welcome' British citizens will be within the EU so people can't commit to moves now.

You are wrong ww. The EU ensures that citizens can move freely and have access to health care, etc. After Brexit my British husband will not fall in this category.

So it's now up to other EU countries to "reassure" post brexit Brits that they'll be welcome? I suspect you're being sarcastic.

Well either the govt. are engaged in a cunning ruse to let a bit of shit hit the fan to avoid art 50, or they are as utterly clueless as they appear to be. Christ If I were a bit younger and had no kids I would be so outta here.

I think May is agnostic about Brexit - she doesn't really care about whether we are in the EU or not. She has no ideological position, she is a pragmatic "end justifies the means" politician (her record at the home office is evidence for this).

She came into the job as PM prepared to Brexit - because it was the pragmatic way of ensuring that she had a party to lead. But because she was never intellectually engaged with the EU debate, I think she had literally no idea of the legal and practical implications.

Now she's coming to an understanding of how difficult it will be - but at the same time, she also faces an increasingly rabid press which will hunt her mercilessly if she gives the slightest hint that Brexit might not, after all, mean Brexit.

So she has to play for time: A50 has already been pushed back at least twice. I'm not sure that inflation is what will save her - more the knock-on impact of a weak exchange rate, stagnant or negative real wage growth, and an inhospitable climate for foreigners, all of which will make the UK much less attractive to migrants.

immigration has to drop to give May and others a 'get out of jail free' card. It won't, on its own, quiet the sovereignty ideologues like Davis, but I think we can be pretty clear that for many people, 'taking control' and 'sovereignty' are just politically-correct code words for 'keeping out foreigners'. So I think net migration will ultimately be the key to this.

No - actually no. I thought about being goady but my own experience means it's not really something to be goady about. I think you are entitled to benefits on the same way migrants are the the uksoit shouldn't put people off,is what I'm saying.

And there may be some British emigration too, but only, I think, of people able to secure the type of jobs that would survive a hard Brexit, ie those who do skilled jobs and whose employer would be prepared to envisage visa processes if necessary. Otherwise it's a huge risk.

Don't forget that for a British person moving to a European city, house prices just went up by about 25%.

Of course nothing changes until we lea e. The law is the law.

Jaws,

Your husband may have to pay for health insurance like many of us do anyway. So?

Your husband may have to pay for health insurance like many of us do anyway.

Anyone paying taxes in the UK (and that includes indirect taxes) already de facto pays 'health insurance', since NHS spending comes out of the general taxation pot.

I think you are entitled to benefits on the same way migrants are the the uksoit shouldn't put people off,is what I'm saying.

FFS ww you're not a stupid person so why would you be suggesting anyone who's not happy about Brexit would move to another EU country when they don't know what rights they will have in 2 years?

of course nothing changes until we leave

Ah, so that makes it ok then?