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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Enough is enough

401 replies

RBeer · 15/10/2016 14:33

We are now in the throes of a right wing agenda willing to bring down the country for its own ideological beliefs. Bad things happen when good people do nothing. I for one will stand up so lest my children say I did nothing.

OP posts:
MagikarpetRide · 16/10/2016 13:20

time I would like out government to be putting the economy above a notional need for immigration controls. By which I don't mean we don't need some control but apparently brexit wasn't about immigration and now that apparently the red line.

shirleyknotanotherbot · 16/10/2016 13:23

My letter to MP was in no way a masterpiece - actually it wasn't a letter either but an email. My points were:

  • loss my confidence and vote
  • horror at the new direction His party is taking
  • concern for the future of our economy
  • perceived pandering to xenophobia
  • perceived unreadiness to listen to a very large minority
  • apparent personal u-turn on beliefs

I also asked him to outline how he was going to fight to get the best deal for his constituents (given that remaining within the EU is no longer an option). I added that he has also lost the respect of my children.

As I said, hardly a masterpiece, but perhaps a starting point.

shirleyknotanotherbot · 16/10/2016 13:24

Loss of my confidence

TheElementsSong · 16/10/2016 13:35

What ron said.

larrygrylls · 16/10/2016 13:39

Confidence (both business and consumer) is an input in any economic forecast. Even winning a World Cup can produce an economic boost. Whilst you cannot 'talk' an economy into recession, optimism will aid the economy.

Kaija · 16/10/2016 13:41

The indications from government that they were looking towards a hard Brexit and ruling out continued freedom of movement had a pretty clear effect on confidence in the pound.

Kaija · 16/10/2016 13:43

Thank you Shirley.

TheElementsSong · 16/10/2016 13:52

Whilst you cannot 'talk' an economy into recession, optimism will aid the economy.

The majority of the population, we are constantly reminded, have "won" something arguably greater than the World Cup - can we not expect them to provide the required boost in confidence? In fact, is that not what we are seeing in the continued consumer spending?

Conversely, we cannot expect those who "lost" to pretend to an optimism going forward, so the logical approach (leaving aside that they are the insignificant minority) must be to enforce silence on them?

smallfox2002 · 16/10/2016 13:52

You can't talk an economy into recession, but firms aren't going to ignore the actual evidence that a hard brexit would be extremely damaging for the UK economy.

The uncertainty about what kind of deal that we are going to get, and how it impacts the business environment in this country was highlighted as an issue prior to the vote, over and over.

You can't blame firms for not taking the "it will all be alright" platitudes that you seem to have done, or for playing a wait and see game which is already damaging the economy.

As much as you try and turn it round, the issues we are experiencing are entirely at the door of those who voted leave.

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:00

Of course confidence is not limited to helping economic growth. Lack of confidence certainly can lead to a major downturn with the multiplier effect. Negative confidence hits spending and other consumer economic activity (house buying, borrowing money etc) - the fall in consumer economic activity will hit profit forecasts, this will hit investment, this will hit job security, this will further hit spending. I'm surprised you're questioning it.

This is Bernard Connelly: economist in favour of Brexit, on the fall in sterling.

The reality is that Britain, in the EU or out of it, has a severely unbalanced economy in which, because of abnormally low interest rates, far too much spending has been brought forward from the future. Britain is not alone in that – it is a problem faced by many economies. But the huge current-account deficit (7% of GDP – an all-time record) is an indication that the problem is significantly worse in Britain than elsewhere.

That deficit cannot run on forever. It is not financed by “the kindness of strangers”, as Mark Carney notoriously claimed, but by the greed and folly of markets. It is quite simply inevitable that at some point markets will realise that Britain’s external position is unsustainable.

Britain is living beyond its means, in part because of the wholly illusory perception of “wealth” created by inflated house prices – in turn the result of aberrantly-low interest rates which are distorting the economy and creating a looming crisis for pension funds and life insurers.

The increase in British “living standards”, relative to underlying productivity growth, simply has to decline for a time. Britain needs higher interest rates, lower house prices and a weaker currency. That truth is undoubtedly unpalatable. But burying our heads in the sand, as Soros – and, irresponsibly, the Bank of England – seems to want to do, would only make things worse.

The longer it takes for that recognition to take hold, the more disruptive will be an he longer it takes for that recognition to take hold, the more disruptive will be an eventual “sudden stop” in the financing of the deficit, the bigger will be the sterling depreciation required to support output and employment in the face of reduced domestic demand (in the economics jargon, this comes mainly from switching demand from internationally-traded goods, mainly produced abroad, to non-traded goods, produced and sold only at home – a mechanism Soros seems not to have grasped) and the greater will be the risk of financial crisis.

The most serious risk of all for the British economy is that if the opportunity for political escape and economic re-balancing afforded by Brexit is not taken, market recognition of unsustainability will come in the context of the inevitable next phase of the euro crisis, or of a global financial crisis.

ZuleikaDobson · 16/10/2016 14:04

Surely no-one seriously believes that the current state of the pound is the result of alleged "talking down" of the economy? Should news organisations hide the facts? You can't force people to be optimistic when they can see the results in the shape of rising prices and businesses moving out.

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:05

The distinction between Hard and Soft Brexit is created entirely by Remoaners (yes I heard the call to stop using this term). Soft Brexit is not Brexit. It's an attempt to turn something that is definitely not Brexit, into something that sounds like Brexit, so that they can get their way and Remain, against the will of the people. This is an absolute truth.

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:05

Well not quite in the sense of 2+2=4. But it is absolutely true.

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:06

Zuleika: no they shouldn't hide the facts. Which is why i'm wondering why they DO hide the facts, as I explained earlier.

whatwouldrondo · 16/10/2016 14:09

WW I know I am probably pissing in the wind because I asked you this before and got no answer but to be accused of "haranging" you. and who is doing the haranging now If you damage the bits of the economy that are working, and generating a positive trade balance, by depriving the financial services industry of the passport and the science, tech and higher education sectors of the benefits of EU investment and collaboration, what do you propose to put in their place to establish a positive balance of payments. The sectors of the economy that are in surplus are the ones that Brexit is going to damage most so what exactly are you going to sell to the world that will compensate for that and put us in the position we were pre Brexit, let alone generate a positive trade balance. You can devalue the pound all you like but if we don't produce anything the world wants to buy we are to quote a phrase used commonly on these threads FUK'd

smallfox2002 · 16/10/2016 14:12

Ah would that be an expert view? What about all the expert views that say that we are better off in the EU? Connelly is a single voice with much criticism of his work.

I'll go with the experts from: The BOE, IMF, OECD, UCL, LSE, Oxford Economics, Adam Smith Insititute, HSBC, PwC etc etc etc.

Your point about the multiplier is still down to "talking down" the economy. I repeat, the confidence isn't effected by "talking down" but by the uncertainty created by not knowing what kind of terms Brexit will settle on getting. This, not talking down the economy, is what is causing the lack of business optimism.

I know why you won't admit it, because like all brexiteers you are looking for someone else to blame for the situation.

This is firmly in your court.

Oh btw, you realise that the devalued pound will make our BOP deficit larger? At least in the short run.

LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt · 16/10/2016 14:14

Simple, whatwould - jams and marmalades are what Liam Fox and Andrea Leadsom have come up with. I feel very reassured as he's a trustworthy chap and, well, she's a mum, you know!

jaws5 · 16/10/2016 14:20

Oh yes, Conelly, not as much as "an economist for Brexit" as "the economist" for Brexit that leavers bring out every time completely Ignoring the hundreds of economists and experts of every kind who think Brexit is insane.

shirleyknotanotherbot · 16/10/2016 14:22

Unignoring for a moment.

WW, the hard v soft Brexit argument has not been created by Remainers. We wanted to REMAIN in the EU! The various options of Brexit - Switzerland model, Norway +, WTO, etc - were all just theoretical leave options bandied around by brexiteers hoping to gain leave votes from many different camps and giving people false hope of a future outside the EU. Nothing to do with me! I wanted to remain.

Ignoring again (must try harder this time).

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:24

Shirley, it really is I'm afraid.

Smallfox: if uncertainty is the problem, why do you seek to extend it? Invoke Article 50 now.

WinchesterWoman · 16/10/2016 14:26

;Leavers bring out every time;? Erm no. I've mentioned him twice before I think.

Obviously he wasn't the only economist for Brexit. And he's certainly not a globalisation addict, like your list.

Kaija · 16/10/2016 14:26

"The distinction between Hard and Soft Brexit is created entirely by Remoaners (yes I heard the call to stop using this term). Soft Brexit is not Brexit. It's an attempt to turn something that is definitely not Brexit, into something that sounds like Brexit, so that they can get their way and Remain, against the will of the people. This is an absolute truth."

No. This is an absolute lie.

GraceGrape · 16/10/2016 14:30

WinchesterWoman How is soft Brexit not Brexit? As has been repeatedly pointed out, the only question posed to the public was about leaving the EU. Surely even the most ignorant realise that the EU and the EEA are separate? It was widely publicised before the referendum with talk of Norway etc.

Nobody, neither you, nor Teresa May nor Isabel Oakshott or anyone else at the Daily Mail can claim to speak for why others cast their vote the way they did. My Daily Mail-reading DM has been vocally anti-EU for many years. She didn't vote in the referendum - she felt it was not for her to make a decision that would affect her children and grandchildren far more than her - but if she had done, she would have voted leave. However, she had every intention of remaining part of the single market and is horrified at the idea of hard Brexit.

smallfox2002 · 16/10/2016 14:35

Because not invoking article 50 now gives us time to put together a plan, as there blatantly isn't one.

Once Art 50 is declared it won't clear up uncertainty anyway, it will merely continue until the terms of any agreement and its impact on the UK's trading relationship with the EU. So the uncertainty is going to last for nearly 2.5 years and this will influence any business decisions made during that time (so its unlikely the new Qasqai will get built in Sunderland for example).

In the short run the economy will be negatively effected by lower business investment, as well as lower consumer spending due to reduced consumer spending power because of inflation, this will result in the negative multiplier you talked of. Oh and in the LR its down to Fox, Johnson and Davis to get us the best deal possible. Its no wonder people are worried.

In the long run the investment issue also negatively effects the productive capacity of the economy.

So its not "talking down" its the fact that the leave vote was an incredible risk to take, and the environment reflects that.

Tanith · 16/10/2016 14:51

"created entirely by Remoaners (yes I heard the call to stop using this term)"

Then I look forward to the cessation of the tedious name-calling accusations from the Leavers - designed, of course, to distract from and derail the debate.

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