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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 10:50

But only once I have said this: Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon
Imagine if Cameron had tried that one in the referendum campaign. "If you vote Leave there will be NO MORE MARMITE OR BEN & JERRY'S"
I've just tried imagining that. They would have said "scaremongering" like they did to everything else.

MirabelleTree · 13/10/2016 10:57

In other world news, the Thai king has died apparently.

tiggytape · 13/10/2016 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 11:28

But having Gibraltar, NI or Scotland having a casting vote wouldn't have been good either. As it happens, in all their cases it would have been a vote for the status quo, which is normally considered to be the convention when a casting vote is used.

It wouldn't have solved the Tory party's problem with their Eurosceptic wing, but it hasn't anyway.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 11:32

BUSY BUSY MORNING

Johnson
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/13/boris-johnson-is-damaging-germanys-goodwill-towards-the-uk/
Boris Johnson is damaging Germany’s goodwill towards the UK

‘We’re used to respecting foreign ministers a lot’, said Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, last week, in response to Boris Johnson’s claim that the ‘automatic trade-off’ between the EU’s single market and freedom of movement was ‘complete baloney’. Mr Schäuble offered to send Johnson a copy of the Lisbon Treaty, suggesting he come to London and personally teach him, in ‘good English’, the rules of the European community.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Quick reminder that when our ministers lie to us, they also anger the very people they are about to negotiate with

Lib Dem Press Office ‏@LibDemPress
Boris Johnson says the Single Market, which is vital for UK jobs and prosperity, is an "increasingly useless" phrase

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson
Boris dismisses fixation on single market and says people have the impression membership is like "the groucho club" when it's more nuanced.

Marmite
Brexit means Breakfast

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Marmite story is like something dreamed up by a Remainer political strategist: Colourful totemic illustration of an underlying theme.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
12. Marmite. Impact of sterling devaluation on inflation starting to be seen quicker than I'd thought.

James O'Brien ‏@mrjamesob
A cautious explanation: Unilever is Anglo-Dutch & trades in Euros. Thus every time the pound loses ground to the Euro, Unilever loses money.

Ladyboy Burchett ‏@StuBurchett
@mrjamesob And oil is traded in $. Any company that transports its products will have higher costs that have to be passed on to end consumer

On this point, I’ve seen that petrol is expected to hit £1.20 a litre soon. Maybe we can hide this by switching to price per gallon.

Vegemite @Vegemite
@Bovril. This is our moment

More generally on the economy

David Schneider ‏@davidschneider
Listen! Can you hear it?
That's the sound of Brexiters moving from shouting "Project Fear" to saying "short-term economic pain is worth it"

Theresa May ‏@Theresa_Maybe
We want to restore the greatness of the British Empire. Today the pound fell to a value not seen since 1848, so we're almost there.

More seriously:
Allegra Stratton ‏@ITVAllegra
Interesting splash on why London not doomed. Good quotes & charges that more firms based in EEA use passports to access UK than vice versa

City A.M Front page
Bank of England warns: EU Cannot replace the city. Top central banker and European diplomats say only New York can rival the UK’s financial powerhouse.
www.cityam.com/251338/bank-england-warns-eu-cannot-replace-city

London's financial services firms would rather head across the Atlantic to New York than relocate across the Channel if forced to leave London, a Bank of England deputy governor said yesterday, as diplomatic figures suggest that Europe would shoot itself in the foot if it drives a hard bargain with the City over Brexit.

Jon Cunliffe, the Bank of England's deputy governor with responsibility for financial stability, said that firms might start looking to New York as a better place to do business post-Brexit.

He believes European hubs such as Frankfurt, Paris and Amsterdam do not pose serious competition to London's leading financial status.

On yesterday’s debate
www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-brexiteers-article-50-ironic-parliament-power-for-people-theresa-may-vote-outrageous-a7357951.html
Its ironic and outreagous that Brexiteers who talked about power for the people don’t want parliament to have a say.

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/theresa-mays-cynical-brexit-stance-has-put-her-head-on-the-block/
Theresa May’s cynical Brexit stance has put her head on the block; This time the old snob-mob alliance will not hold

Ciano ‏@ciano_ire
@DavidAllenGreen I've just realised: the UK government is currently negotiating Brexit with itself. And loosing.

Article 50
jackofkent.com/2016/10/why-the-article-50-case-may-be-the-most-important-constitutional-case-of-a-generation/
Why the Article 50 case may be the most important constitutional case for a generation
David Allen Green

www.washingtonpost.com/business/uk-lawsuit-challenges-british-pm-theresa-may-on-brexit/2016/10/12/7bb7cab4-9098-11e6-bc00-1a9756d4111b_story.html
UK lawsuit challenges British PM Theresa May on Brexit
Washington Post view

www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/79819/top-tory-mp-lays-arrogant-fund-manager-over-brexit
A top Tory MP has launched a scathing attack on the "arrogant" fund manager who is taking the Government to court over Brexit.
Dominic Rabb, a lawyer takes on the rule of law.

This annotated version of Article 50 skeleton argument by @carlgardner
www.documentcloud.org/documents/3131742-Skeleton-argument-on-behalf-of-the-2nd-group-of.html#document/p1
One for you CeciledeVolanges!

fullfact.org/europe/can-uk-change-mind-leaving-eu-brexit/
Fullfact.org explore whether a50 can be reversed once triggered

Worth remembering if it does go to parliament
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Grice right on both these points: MPs would vote to trigger A50 but against leaving the single market

Meanwhile in Europe
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/13/hungary-future-europe-far-right-viktor-orban
Hungary’s chilling plight could foreshadow Europe’s future
Rightwing populism is on the march – but the EU can’t even win enough support to impose sanctions

Immigration
Today’s Front Page of the Times
Ministers hide reports on migrant numbers
Foreign student figures out by tens of thousands

Only 1 per cent of international students break the terms of their visa by refusing to leave after their course ends, a secret government study has found.

The research threatens to undermine Theresa May’s case for a crackdown on foreign student recruitment and calls into question past estimates that put the figure far higher. Official statistics have been used to suggest that tens of thousands of foreign students “vanish” each year after finishing their degrees, but the latest study would suggest that the true figure is 1,500.

The Home Office, which commissioned the analysis, disputed that it was conclusive and said that the work was “not completed”. It has refused to share the study with other Whitehall ministries and rebuffed from the The Time to release it, including under the Freedom of Information Act.

Article continues and later says

Britain could lose much of its £11 billion income from international students as rivals led by the United States, Canada and Australia push ahead in the global higher education market.

Some degrees at leading universities, particularly postgraduate course in technical subjects, would not survive without overseas students.

Amber Rudd, the home secretary, tried to have students removed from net migration figures, enabling them to avoid the crackdown on migrants, but was over-ruled by Mrs May

WHO LEAKED THIS?! Hmmmm….. First a leak from the Treasury, then the FCO v LSE which is highly political and now one from the Home Office. May is making enemies.

Will catch up with live a50 case shortly.

OP posts:
prettybird · 13/10/2016 11:32

"but they chose not to have that.".

That's the whole point: every single Scottish MP could have chosen it (and who are the Gibraltarians MPs? Hmm) but it would have made sweet FA difference.

prettybird · 13/10/2016 11:40

From Lesley Riddoch's FB (she's a Scottish journalist/broadcaster):

"Nicola Sturgeon tells #SNP16 indyref2 bill will be published next week. It will be new debate not rerun if 2014. FM tells Theresa May at #SNP16 :If u believe the uk can work for scotland it's up to u to prove it. If u think 4 a second I am not serious about doing what it takes to protect Scotlands interest then think again. If u won't allow us to protect our interests w/i UK, then no-one will have right to deny scotland a better future."

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 12:09

Indyref2 now breaking news on the BBC website.
(As is Bob Dylan winning a Nobel prize.)

prettybird · 13/10/2016 12:17

I'm ShockHmm at one of those breaking news items Wink

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 12:21

Does Gibraltar have MPs? I know the Overseas Territories are very affected (their only industries are financial services) and have no representation in Parliament, nor were they mentioned in the debate. And the U.K. Makes law for them.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 12:22

Legal Cheek ‏@legalcheek
Breaking news: A member of court staff has fallen asleep #BrexitCase

Just reading the tweets about it, I can understand why

Hope this makes some sense. Its a bit difficult to understand if you are not a lawyer (and I'm not)

Going through the tweets of Jo Maugham, a lawyer at one of the firms who are making the government challenge, and Conor James McKinney is a lawyer who writes for FullFact.org trying to make some sense of it. I have put together to try and help with that, so if one doesn't make sense the other may help.

For the Claimant - David Pannick QC

The Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, Master of the Rolls Sir Terence Etherton, and Lord Justice Sales are hearing the case.
There is a court stenographer. Transcripts will be released at lunchtime and after court.

Conor James McKinney account:
Article 50 case: apparently we are going to hear about the Act of Union and Bill of Rights 1689. On a grand tour of the constitution today.

Maugham’s account:
David Pannick QC kicks off. Case raises an issue of fundamental constitutional importance concerning limits of the power of the executive. Parliament may approve Bill, it may reject it, or it may approve it with conditions: eg, as to timing, or as to reporting to Parliament.

Sales LJ: is it relevant to have some idea of the international law position in 1972 so that we can understand the background to the ECA?

(Maugham suggests this response is a sign that Sales may be against the Claimants.)

Conor James McKinney account:
Lord Justice Sales is asking for information on the route to leaving the EU before Art 50 existed, which he considers relevant background.

[RTB: This seems different to the way Maugham phrased it]

Maugham’s account:
Pannick says that whether Parliament needs to agree the terms of withdrawal is irrelevant to the question of how withdrawal is given. Structure of A50 is, if you decide to withdraw there are consequences, irrespective of what then happens domestically.

(Maugham: Pannick is saying, in effect, A50 is irreversible. Legally helpful to claimants. Politically helpful to Government).

Conor James McKinney account:
Lord Pannick pressing his point that Art 50 being triggered means that a country is invariably out of the EU, no matter what Parliament does.

Pannick argues that "there's no going back". (This is vital to his case, because it's all about ECA 1972 being made null and void by govt.) He spells it out: notification "has a dramatic impact in domestic law", and removes rights for individuals conferred by Parliament in 1972.

"Notification produces the result which offends against domestic constitutional law", Lord Pannick says. Expect this to be contested ground.

Maugham’s account:
Pannick points out that there is no suggestion in the Government's Skeleton that there is any power to withdraw a notification once given. Section 8(1) of that Act mandates a consequence. But the Referendum Act specifies no such consequence. Defendant does not say he has a statutory power. Skeleton relies on prerogative power. Common law limits on use of Prerogative powers cannot be affected by an Act that says nothing about them.

(Maugham: FWIW, I've always found that argument a compelling one: the limits of the Prerogative can't be affected by the result of the Referendum).

Pannick: Gov Skeleton is just wrong to say that the question before Parliament is the same question as was posed in the Referendum. The question for Parliament is not, should we stay or go, but timing, negotiating terms, etc. Not addressed in Referendum.

Thomas LCJ: you say the Ref Act confers a mandate and it is for Parliament to determine what the mandate is?

Pannick: yes.

(Maugham: This is why I have been banging on about the 'source' of the mandate Theresa May claims to have. I agreed with Pannick that that is necessary and alarming consequences of Government's position.)

Conor James McKinney account:
Lord Pannick turns to EU Referendum Act 2015, which he notes contains no provision for any consequences from the vote. AV referendum did.

Sir Terence Etherton has asked whether it's relevant that there is now a new "democratic response" by the people in the form of a referendum
Lord Justice Sales clarifies that Lord Pannick's argument is that Parliament must legislate for Article 50 - not just pass a motion. It is.

Maugham’s account:
Pannick is making points much made by the great EU jurist Van Gerven about the special quality of EU law. Under our domestic law a Treaty is not self-executing. But what Parliament did in ECA is make EU law part of domestic law. My fundamental point is that rights were conferred on 1.1.73 and they simply cannot be taken away by an Act of the Executive.

Pannick says (in response to a question) that some of these rights can't be reenacted by Parliament.

Conor James McKinney account:
We are now taking a trip through some classic EU law - Van Gend en Loos and Simmenthal. Point is the unique character of EU law.

Lord Pannick now going over the rights that EU membership gives citizens, including free movement. Lord Thomas asked for specifics earlier.

Lord Thomas now saying that Parliament could simply reenact some EU law rights, & wants to know what rights it could not reenact post Brexit. Lord Pannick replies: right to go to Court of Justice would "go, forever", as would free movement rights. Parliament can't give them back.

[RTB: Seems important point, sure will be a point of contention. Interesting to see.]

Also tells the Lord Chief Justice that's "not the right question".

Lord Pannick is now pointing to Thoburn case - 1972 Act is immune from implied repeal. Proof of its constitutional significance.

Pannick now addressing this in response to Q by Lord Justice Sales. Says EU law rights would fall away Repeal Bill or no.

@ProfMarkElliott He makes the same point you did in recent blog - there will be nothing for ECA 1972 to bite on if Treaties no longer apply

Art 50 case resumes after brief break. Update on Northern Ireland case: it's only about devolution, issues being discussed here were stayed.

Lord Pannick turns to the nature of prerogative powers, defined by Dicey as the "residue of discretionary or arbitrary authority". He says case law establishes the principle that prerogative powers cannot be used to deprive people of rights they enjoy in domestic law.

(Conor James McKinney: Again, this is the fundamental argument upon which the claimants' case rests. We will see what the government has to say about it.)

Pannick notes in passing EU rights aren't "any old statutory rights". They are fundamental, constitutional ones that govt proposes to remove

The point [that rights such as free movement are now constitutional ones and Parliament can’t just give them back] has just been reiterated - right of access to EU court would go upon Brexit. Also the right to stand for the European Parliament.

Lord Pannick opens the Case of Proclamations (1610). Amazing to hear words 400 years old being read verbatim to the court as legal argument.

"The King by his proclamation cannot change the common law or statute law or the customs of the realm."

Bit of back and forth about the cases on prerogative powers that Lord Pannick is using. Judges have a few questions on their applicability.
Govt says of this authority that commencing the Art 50 process does not in itself change any of the laws of the realm, so it's not relevant.

Lord Pannick says this misses the point because the inevitable result of triggering Art 50 is to strip away EU rights. This clash is central

The next authority cited by Lord Pannick is the Laker Airways case from, I think, the 1970s. This is somewhat less inspiring.

ernst soup‏@PaoloBrennan
@mckinneytweets It is the decision that leads to the inevitable loss of rights. Pan nick is arguing about the wrong thing

Conor James McKinney‏@mckinneytweets
We haven't had any discussion of the "decision" under Art 50 yet. But we will. Govt says it has been taken, claimants disagree.

Conor James McKinney account:
But the point of it is, again, that the government cannot take away "by the back door" (per Lord Roskill I think) rights given by Parliament and, Lord Pannick says, the Laker case shows that legislation can abolish prerogative powers even if it makes no reference to them at all.

The point of them all is, in substance, the same: that the courts shouldn't let government, acting by fiat, disturb laws made by Parliament

Lord Justice Sales says that all these cases rely on implying / reading into the relevant legislation a restriction on prerogative powers.

So he doesn't see how they assist with Lord Pannick's wider point. Lord Justice Sales has seemed a little sceptical throughout.

[RTB: Echoing now what Maugham said about him thinking Sales is against the Claimant. Also seems there seems to be a concern that Pannick is arguing about the wrong thing, but this is apparently going to be tackled later on. Doesn’t sound like the challenge is winning over the judges so far]

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 12:25

Oh, thanks Red! Can't wait to have a look...

mupperoon · 13/10/2016 12:25

David Davies MP
@DavidTCDavies
So Unilever using Marmite prices to punish us for Brexit. toast-spread fight back starts here. From now on It's Aussie made Vegemite for me.

Replies to this hilarious Tweet are scathing to say the least.

I am finding the DM and DE very scary at the moment. They are using Remainer as a synonym for traitor or enemy. My Leave-voting parents read the DM and the Telegraph. I wonder if they think I am a traitor? I support England Rugby and Jenson Button (domiciled in Monaco). Is that enough?

prettybird · 13/10/2016 12:33

Gibraltar does not have an MP or any representation in the HoC Cecilia - I was being a bit facetious. Hmm

.....so they couldn't have chosen to put a double lock on to the referendum process. Which makes a mockery of Tiggytape's statement Sad

mupperoon · 13/10/2016 12:34

On the other hand Ian Dunt's Twitter feed is forcing proper LOLs out of me despite my all-pervading gloom.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 12:43

I think Sturgeon's hand has been forced by May's behaviour. What else could she do if she believes in Independent? The chance for it, required a major change and the referendum gifted her one. Politically I'm not sure she had a lot of choice.

The argument about Sterling and having no power over it remains though. Scotland - like the UK - can not have its own sovereignty because of the outside pressures of it.

The other thing is that in winning the refer, ironically Scotland will in effect, be leaving the EU. The EU politically can not let it remain in the EU as it will encourage other separatist movements around Europe to do the same. It would therefore have to go through the process of entering the EU and receiving the approval of all the EU nations to do so. Again, there is no guarantee that other EU nations will allow this, for the same point.

Scotland could as a result end up outside the EU attached to the pound which is dependent on FUKD policy - though as the Euro and Pound are currently virtually at parity there might be a golden opportunity to jump over to the Euro with relatively few problems. They do not necessarily need EU approval for this - there are several countries which have adopted it without EU approval. This would make them tied with EU economic fortunes rather than FUKD ones.

In this there is a compelling argument for Independence - if the FUKD is about to really go off the edge of the cliff.

But in actually creates the situation where Scotland would be voting to leave the EU or voting to stay with the FUKD and leave the EU. Which rather undermines the argument of the will of the Scottish people who voted to Remain in the EU.

I guess though, if your choice is having a say or not having a say in your political future when your current position is effectively no say, then Independence really does have a good selling point. I think its called 'Taking Back Control'.

I think it has a good chance of winning.

May's attitude and approach could well have broken the Union before any policy decision has been made.

The way I see it, is the only way she can stop this is to now grant a MAJOR concession to Scotland tbh. Which endangers her. But if she doesn't I think she will loose the ref which will end her too.

We now have a one on one: Sturgeon or May. Both can not survive politically imho.

Wow.

This was my greatest fear when I voted. Voting to Leave would mean a very strong chance of the break up of the UK. If Scotland goes, I think NI will too. And here we are...

Somedays its not nice to be proved right.

OP posts:
prettybird · 13/10/2016 12:52

I agree that it is definitely not a given that Scotland would be able to remain in the EU - or alternatively that it would get back in quickly.

However, I do think that it is more likely that Scotland could join EFTA in the interim than FUKD: its size is more compatible with the current EFTA countries and, more importantly, it is prepared to accept the Four Freedoms.

I also agree that NS' hand has been forced sooner than she wanted; she didn't want to call another Indyref until she was sure she could win the polls were consistently at 60%.

Scot2Be · 13/10/2016 12:59

Pretty who gets to vote in an Indy Ref, British citizens living in Scotland or British and EU citizens living in Scotland? I guess it's the former?

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 13:09

Sturgeon should pitch for EU, with EFTA as a fall back to win.

May's has to start listening to Scotland or IndyRef becomes a reality - if May blocks it, she risks breaking the Union that way too.

May's options just got smaller.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 13:14

Indy Ref 1:

Any one over 16 who was

  1. British or Irish Citizen living in Scotland
  2. An EU Citizen living in Scotland
  3. A qualifying Commonwealth Citizen living in Scotland

Two key groups there.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 13:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 13:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 13:30

Sturgeon would want Indy Ref 2 to happen 'before 1st April 2019'.

Important. Suggestion is that 1st April is the day we would leave EU if art 50 triggered at end of March.

I wonder if May would even have the time to devote to defending the UK against Indy Ref 2 whilst also preparing for that.... She would need to be cloned.

I'm not liking Johnson's warmongering in Syria. Heard a couple of comments today but not had chance to look further. What is going on there is awful, but talk of another war is worrying.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 13:37

More a50:

Conor James McKinney ‏account:
Lord Pannick: "rights have been created and are being taken away by the executive". This is, he says, the heart of the case.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
In high court, Pannick (QC for challengers) is putting Article 50 case in terms in which the government is weakest: the effect on rights.

Conor James McKinney ‏account:
Lord Pannick is now addressing the government's skeleton argument against him. (They will expand on it to the court on Monday.)
Now discussing the European Communities Act 1972. Lord Pannick makes the point that it commits to embedding future EU law rights and duties.

Lord Thomas asks what happens if EU law were changed - does that then remove a right in UK law? Lord Pannick accepts that it does. Says that before EU Act 2011, govt could have agreed with other member states to change the treaties without Parliament agreeing

Lord Pannick doesn't accept that power extended to taking away fundamental rights - government couldn't have changed UK law so drastically. He is keen to stress that this case is about removing fundamental rights altogether, undermining whole substance of 1972 Act.

Sales LJ is also very interested in Pannick's view on the hypothetical case where govt agreed to amend the Treaties in 1973.

Lord Pannick turns to govt contention that Art 50 notification has only international law consequences.

(Conor James McKinney: He is in trouble if this is right.)

ernst soup‏@PaoloBrennan

@mckinneytweets He surely need to focus on rights of Eu nationals under U.K. law and on rights of UK expats in the EU
Conor James McKinney ‏@mckinneytweets
This has not been discussed but UK expats in the EU are represented in this case so perhaps their interests will come up

Conor James McKinney ‏account:
Lord Pannick spent time distinguishing the Rees-Mogg case, on which govt relies. Lord Rees-Mogg's MP son is, of course, ardent for Brexit.

In the NI case the government have released their skeleton defence:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559945/SKELETON_ARGUMENT_ON_BEHALF_OF_THE_RESPONDENT.pdf

OP posts:
prettybird · 13/10/2016 13:51

I remember when I was canvassing before the Indyref coming across a few Polish people who'd been told by Better Together canvassers that the only way that they'd be allowed to stay was if they voted No Angry

I can understand your frustration Motheroffourdragons - but the franchise is consistent with the argument of "civic" rather than "ethnic" nationalism. Iirc, there was research last suggested that if they'd excluded the English voters, then Yes would've won. I'm not so sure (as you'd also have included the Scottish diaspora) - but even if theoretically it were true, I think the result would've been too close (such as 52:48 Wink) and would have been even more divisive....

I don't think the residential requirement was that long - you could always considered a sabbatical Grin I'm only being half flippant