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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
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EmilyAlice · 13/10/2016 18:28

Sixty-six me. Pissed off with my generation (though all my friends voted remain), facing an uncertain future as pensioner living abroad, very angry at being deprived of my right to live in EU by people who don't give a toss about it.
Very grateful for these wonderful threads, feeling just a tiny bit less pessimistic today.
French person said to me today, "mais pour le royaume-uni c'est une catastrophe". Quite.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 18:30

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Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 18:33

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CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 18:33

Red just travelling home, I will dig it out when I get back.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 18:51

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/13/liberal-internationalists-populists-globalisation?CMP=twt_gu
Thought provoking article.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/its-hard-brexit-or-no-brexit-at-all-says-eu-council-president?CMP=twt_gu
Tusk is being unhelpful - it just plays to the narrative that the EU are trying to bully us.

www.buzzfeed.com/fionarutherford/thousands-of-people-have-signed-a-letter-accusing-the-govern?utm_term=.hq4Yb6GKR#.swzz4xQXM
Thousands of people — including hundreds of academics — have signed an open letter urging the government to end xenophobic rhetoric after it was shared widely on social media.

The letter was published on Monday morning and initially gained around 300 signatures. However, word soon got around, and in just a few days more than 10,000 people had signed up to support the campaign, called “Not Foreign.”

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 13/10/2016 19:20

I think @DavidAllenGreen is wrong (and I hate to say that) - it definitely looks like a slam dunk to me especially as the statement is (a) so recent (b) from the government whose leader Theresa May has only just taken the reins from.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 19:25

lala the trial is about the law. It isn't about whether the referendum is advisory or not, it is about whether the government has a certain power or not.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 19:25

Sorry, I'm not being polite today. Having a bad day but it isn't an excuse. Apologies all.

lalalonglegs · 13/10/2016 19:35

Cecile Don't worry about it, I make no claim to be a legal expert, just a hopeless optimist Smile

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 19:40

Boris Johnson must have read one of my posts from yesterday, when I said that in our out of the EU we would want a slice of its military action. He opines:

The UK cannot reasonably stand in the way of any potential "EU Army" after voting for Brexit.

The Foreign Secretary said we should be prepared to be "supportive" of the European Union creating its own defence capability should it come to that.

Just imagine the enthusiasm that will be greeted with by those who voted Leave because they were afraid of a European Army.

jaws5 · 13/10/2016 19:43

Will Boris be accused of treason now by the Express/Mail? (gets popcorn)

prettybird · 13/10/2016 19:56

There is a serious issue about any potential 2nd Indyref: it is not within the competency of the Scottish Parliament. Hence NS is being clever/conniving (depending on your view point Wink) in announcing the publication only of a consultation about an Indyref Bill.

The original Indyref was "allowed" under the terms of the Edinburgh Agreement.

Now it would depend on where she is proposing the Bill be published. Technically, it has to come from Westminster - who of course, in the current climate, would vote anything down. The Presiding Officer at Holyrood, if he were doing his job correctly, would not allow such a bill to be debated as it would be outwith the Scottish Parliament's devolved powers.

Those that write the Bill would need to be very canny in the wording of it.

If it were then voted through but still thwarted by WM, you then get into the murky waters of international law and the UN's declared right to self determination (always assuming that the end result this time is Yes, which is by no means a given).

This at the same time as the Brexit negotiations and potential debates in Parliament about A50 and Hard v Soft Brexit.

The Chinese Curse was never more apt.

RiceCrispieTreats · 13/10/2016 20:49

Tusk is being unhelpful - it just plays to the narrative that the EU are trying to bully us.

Well, yes it does, but I doubt that the impressions of the UK public are his concern anymore. Rather more the public of the 27 other countries. They are far more important for him to play to now.

mathanxiety · 13/10/2016 20:52

The snob-mob alliance is as old as the Tory party is. In 1780, patriotic Protestants incited the Gordon riots against the Whigs who favoured Catholic emancipation. From Randolph Churchill in 1886 through to F. E. Smith in 1914, Tory leaders incited Ulster Protestants to riot, and at the Curragh, the British army to mutiny to stop the Liberals giving the Irish home rule. In living-memory, Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech-incited skinheads to attack Commonwealth immigrants. The snobs’ enemy and the mob’s target have had different names but they are always the same group: Whig aristocrats,-Gladstonian liberals, champagne socialists who in their elite arrogance thought that Catholics should have equal rights and immigrants should be treated with respect.

From the Spectator article linked already by Red:
www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/theresa-mays-cynical-brexit-stance-has-put-her-head-on-the-block/

The old Conservative and Unionist Party-DUP alliance is on the front burner again. Arlene Foster was spotted schmoozing and being schmoozed at the Tory Conference. The net result will be a very divided Northern Ireland. Nobody can hope to divide and conquer NI. Too many groups have too much history of saying 'NO' and meaning it, not just the Unionists, and when so much is on the line here I do not think the Tories should assume the ballot box will be the extent of resistance to the madness and the spectre of rule by Westminster diktat with NI opinion completely ignored and NI business and agriculture left absolutely vulnerable to the winds of international trade.

I suspect moderate unionists and the business community will have no patience at all for the DUP in its role as best friend of a party whose policies will most likely destroy the NI economy, or its street element, the UVF/UFF/UDA.

If the Tory government encourages the DUP to provide the support that it needs to maintain a solid majority, and cannot support NI financially and with sectarian fairness to the same extent that the EU did, cannot guarantee the viability of NI agriculture and small businesses the way closer economic ties to Ireland within the framework of the EU did and can, then there will be bitter resentment at the fact that the DUP is effectively holding NI hostage, allowing Westminster to carry out a policy that will result in financial ruin for NI.

The phrase 'huge sovereign debt' is just a whisper in the wings right now, but there is no amount of euphoric jingoism or narrow party interest that will help when the shit really hits the fan, especially in NI. It is to the Tories' immense discredit that they are encouraging the backward looking jingoism of the DUP after so many years of bloodshed and viciousness and ouitright criminality was finally (?) brought to a close with the GFA, in which the DUP was persuaded to cast their lot with the rest of NI. In the interest of very short term gain, the Tories are trying to use the DUP and of course it is to the immense discredit of the DUP that they would seek their own very short term advantage when a majority ion NI voted to remain (56% in fact). The bottom line is they do not have a mandate to back the Tories, or Brexit of any stripe.

hotmail124 · 13/10/2016 21:08

Couple of side points.

Alex Salmon is perceived as having been 'bounced' into a referendum on Scottish independence that he didn't want. The SNP surprise win in 2011with his commitment to an independence referendum www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/8498136/Scottish-election-results-SNP-secures-surprise-majority.htmlis, is paralleled by the Tories' unexpected 'sweetest victory' in 2015 and the ensuing EU referendum.

Some English people wanted their own nationalism fest like the Scots had 'enjoyed' and so voted the way they did in June. Nationalism is what it is.

On Channel 4 news tonight there were SNP voters who had voted out in the June referendum and who were now intending to vote No to any potential new Scottish independence referendum in order to stay in a Brexit britain.

"The still waters of the headline poll figures conceal some serious churning in the depths. The British Election Study estimates that 37% of the Brexit vote in Scotland was made up of people who voted Yes to independence in 2014, about a third of the SNP’s vote in the 2015 general election."

blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/hard-brexit-equal-scottish-independence/33668

An independent Scotland might not necessarily vote to stay in the EU and a new independence referendum might not be won by a yes vote.

And many many thanks Red Tooth Brush for your brilliant cogent and comprehensive posts.

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 21:26

Thanks for the link to the Spectator article Red. Isn't it normally a right wing, Conservative supporting publication? It doesn't seem to be singing the party tune if so.

Meanwhile, at a hustings in Charlbury, in the Witney constituency, the Tory candidate, Robert Courts, was booed when he opened with "I voted to Leave..." You will need to scroll down a bit to see this. There is something of a feeling in Witney that Cameron has let the side down. However, a 25,000 majority will take some beating.

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 21:35

Marmite back on. Gorilla captured. Phew, what a day!

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 21:39

I think Nick Cohen is token left wing contributor to Spectator.

Here is their weekly podcast including a discussion of that article.

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-spectator/id793236670?mt=2&i=376553300

SwedishEdith · 13/10/2016 21:49

Thanks for that Twitter link Peregrina. Disappointing to set Witney up with a Tory Leaver - who chooses/approves the candidates?

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 21:55

who chooses/approves the candidates?

I think the local party did in that case, and refused to have a central office 'name' drafted in. In a Remain constituency, which Witney was, you would think they would field a Remainer - even one, as they all are now, who has had a sudden change of heart, and repeats Brexit means Brexit, as though it's some Tibetan chant. They are banking on their 25,000 majority saving them from doing too much work. I don't think they realise just how fed up some of the Witney constituents are.

GloriaGaynor · 13/10/2016 22:24

Excellent article by Nick Cohen. Glad he drew attention to Charles 1 - whom we discussed briefly yesterday on this thread.

Charles 1 and James II both tried to rule without Parliament. Everyone knows what happened to Charles - but it's worth emphasising that the civil war was fought to try to get the King to negotiate rather than specifically to finish him off.

James II's attempt ended in the Glorious Revolution of 1688, when he was deposed and replaced with William of Orange.

May studied geography at uni. I suspect that she, like Tony Blair, may come to wish that she had studied history.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 22:40

Sorry, I've not really got the quoting thing down yet, but bloody hell. Basically blackmail from William Cash there. Bastard.

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
SwedishEdith · 13/10/2016 22:46

Bill Cash is your basic Brexit bellend though.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 23:14

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