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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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MrsBlackthorn · 13/10/2016 07:22

There's no good outcome here.

Hard Brexit = WTO tariffs, loss of global economic confidence in the UK, devaluation of the pound, soaring prices, soaring inflation and crippling austerity.

Soft Brexit = Brexit pretty much on the EU's terms because they know we're stuffed economically if we go down the other route (see above), continued free movement of labour, continued payment into EU funds and most probably adherence to a whole bunch of other existing EU regulations which will be deemed their minimum standard of trade provisions.

So in summary, our options are economic suicide or not much of a Brexit really apart from not being part of the EU decision making process anymore.

Either way, it's ludicrous to suggest the government can go for the former on the basis of the result, particularly given the closeness of the result and the dawning realisation of the reality that has already caused many to change their minds.

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 07:40

Actual question, not rhetorical:

At the moment May seems to be acting against the wishes of

  1. Everyone who voted remain
  2. Finance and Business (CBI etc.)
  3. Leavers who think the EU is undemocratic. (See Times and Telegraph editorials).

I'm not sure what Richard Dyson thinks now, but the trend does not at all seem to be towards 'free trade' and 'making immigration global'.

At some point isn't her government going to have to stop berating business leaders and make friends? Are the Conservatives really no longer the party of business? If A50 is triggered in March, the next election will be a year after Britain has left the EU - how will she get all her ducks in a row?

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 07:42

Completely agree Mrs Blackthorn.

However, I'm not sure what the logical next step is for any government.

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 07:49

Actually, I know what I want them to do - if 'hard Brexit' really is the only default choice, make that argument openly in parliament, listen to opposing points of view, act based on information and evidence.

This makes rushing off to war on the basis of supposed weapons of mass destruction seem like a balanced and well thought out plan. Wonder how long we will have to wait for the 'Brexit' enquiry.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 08:14

merrymouse well they have already written significant sections of the conclusions: resipsaloquitursite.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/immediate-thoughts-on-the-chilcot-enquiry/

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 08:15

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ImpYCelyn · 13/10/2016 08:17

Re marmitegate and own brands - a large percentage of supermarket own products are made by the companies which make the brands (production costs/lines etc). The ones that aren't are notable exceptions e.g. Kellogg's who actually trade on the fact they don't. The likely outcome will be mass purchase of current 'own' products, requiring more produced... and so the prices of those going up too as they still have to pay the same productions costs as the branded ones. Someone on FB was raving about how marmite is made in the U.K., it is, but a lot of what's required to make it isn't. The factories will get their money one way or the other. Unilever is being cast as EvilCorp, but actually this is just the start of price hikes all round. Although I do think Unilever is generally EvilCorpesque

prettybird · 13/10/2016 08:41

You're right Motheroffourdragons - anything in the Express (Scottish or otherwise) is total rubbish.

Even if you were to accept the nonsense premise that she was going to resign which she's not, why would that result in an election? The Scottish Parliament has fixed terms. Confused

It's just the usual Express mischief-making.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 08:45

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merrymouse · 13/10/2016 08:53

If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Jeremy Corbyn is secretly in cahoots with Theresa May, and all this SWP/pro-Russia nonsense is to distract from the fact that Labour could at this point become the party of business (thus making him electable and interfering with his 2020 tomato crop).

Figmentofmyimagination · 13/10/2016 09:17

I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but I'm just waiting for them to slip their Slitheen disguises off.

(Notable doctor who episode: - In March 2006 the Passameer-Day branch of the Slitheen disguised themselves as various humans holding leadership positions and attempted to seize control of the British government in an effort to start a nuclear war. Their ultimate aim was to turn the Earth into a huge nuclear reactor pile and sell its remains off as starship fuel. This attempt was foiled by the Ninth Doctor when he ordered Mickey Smith to shoot down Downing Street with a missile. (TV: Aliens of London, World War Three)

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 09:35

I agree with everything here.
The only other thing I need to add is that surely this Unilever/Marmite issue only proves it isn't "the people" in control and this is just a sign of the enormous influence multinational corporations can wield.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 09:45

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prettybird · 13/10/2016 09:47

Motheroffourdragons - I could be cynical and bitter and suggest that she doesn't give a flying fuck what Scotland and Northern Ireland (and don't forget Gibralta) think or want as she can ride roughshod overrule them in the name of dogma. Angry

She might actually listen a little bit more to (the state of) Ireland because of the very real risk of a hard border between Ireland and NI and the risk of derailing the peace process (with all the horrific consequences Sad)

It does make one wonder whether Scotland is as much of a financial burden as Westminster claims Hmm

Motheroffourdragons · 13/10/2016 09:50

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RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 09:58

Not had chance to run through this morning's news but the day has started well....

The HoC are debating something. (No idea what not got it on)

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson
Boris is up: "Those who prophesied doom before the referendum have been proved wrong and I think they will continue to be proved wrong."
MPs are now talking about "Remoaners" so that's another nice addition to the parliamentary record.
"We are going to get a deal that will be of huge value and possibly greater value," says Boris of trade deal, likely outside single market.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 13/10/2016 09:59

Good point figment! I think the tell take give away of a Slitheen was flatulence.

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 10:01

We are going to get a deal that will be of huge value and possibly greater value

Because of BMWs or jam?

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 10:04

Rats. Innovative jam off table. Trademarked by IBM.

www.collaborationjam.com

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 10:08

Boris says he is struck by how little he is asked about Brexit when he travels abroad.

Well, what would you say without being rude?

TheBathroomSink · 13/10/2016 10:11

Boris was on Victoria Derbyshire. He thinks 'single market' is a useless phrase, and something not many people understand, it's not a membership 'like the Groucho Club', which I'm not sure is the best reference for a show with an audience like Derbyshire has. He also says there's no chance of Spain getting their hands on Gibraltar.

Peregrina · 13/10/2016 10:22

He also says there's no chance of Spain getting their hands on Gibraltar.
Will this be a case of famous last words?

Being in the EU was beneficial for both. Why did anyone bother to ask Gibraltar what they thought, if they weren't going to take any notice of their response?

merrymouse · 13/10/2016 10:36

He thinks 'single market' is a useless phrase, and something not many people understand

That might explain the campaigning tactics of the Leave campaign, but doesn't explain why we should leave the single market.

He is talking like an editor deciding what to print, not a member of parliament.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 10:39

Mother I expressed myself badly. I didn't mean they are doing it intentionally. I more meant that our eyes are on the machinery of state and the personalities and if may be things like consumer goods which really changed people's minds and not HoC debates. Leavers will moan too if there isn't enough to eat.

CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 10:40

Which again is not exactly what I wanted to say. Maybe will shut up for the day.