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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 12:13

Goldsmith's rebellion over brexit also suggests he is prepared to be a pain in the ass even if he does stay point though.

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Peregrina · 21/10/2016 12:23

There was definite anger in Witney about Cameron letting the side down, and dislike of Theresa May.

CeciledeVolanges · 21/10/2016 12:27

Isn't it 2/3 though? On a vote of no confidence?

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 12:32

Goldsmith will still be a Tory at heart, and will still votes with them on 98% of the issues.

CeciledeVolanges · 21/10/2016 12:34

I read that "informed gossip has it that before the Brexit referendum, hedge funds in the U.K. Made the price of Remain artificially short by wagering more than 500,000 on it. And then they shorted the pound to profit from a Leave result. And they made a fortune."

Unicornsarelovely · 21/10/2016 12:36

I live near Witney and was talking to a couple of ladies in their 70s last night who had voted 'not tory' for the first time but the Tory candidate is not popular and there's huge anger at the national situation.

FrackingWeekend · 21/10/2016 12:55

Cecile yes Crispin Odey owned up to doing this.

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 12:56

Agreed unicorns - I went to Witney to help with the campaign.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 21/10/2016 14:24

But the cons were elected with a manifesto promise to hold a referendum...or were they annoyed that he hadn't won the referendum?

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 14:30

was talking to a couple of ladies in their 70s last night who had voted 'not tory' for the first time

A lot of the national data for polls is worked out based on models from previous voting patterns on various demographic markers. If there is a significant shift in what people do to something that has not happened before then I would suggest there is a lot of room for error that pollsters may not reflect accurately.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/10/liberal-democrats-are-back-and-tories-should-be-worried
The Liberal Democrats are back - and the Tories should be worried

One thing is clear: the "Liberal Democrat fightback" is not just a hashtag. The partyhas been doing particularly well in affluent Conservative areasthat voted to stay in the European Union. (It's worth noting that one seat that very much fits that profile is Theresa May's own stomping ground of Maidenhead.)

[Personally I think that something really serious would have to be going on for May to lose her seat. The most the LDs have had there was 37.1% of the vote in 2001 whilst the Conservatives had 45.0 giving May a 3,284 majority. Last year the figures were 65.8% to CONs and just 9.9% to LD with LAB in second with 11.9%. Just to get back to the 2001 figure would be an achievement. This would be a larger swing than any council by-election so far.]

However this IS bonkers:
Westminster voting intention for Election Data /YouGov with UKIP removed
CON 47% (+5)
LAB 28% (+2)
LD 10% (+2)
GRN 5% =
F/W 19-20th Oct

2 per cent from UKIP to the LDems!

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/20/iceland-britains-brexit-iest-supermarket/
Brexit by supermarket.

www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-language-exclusive-idUSKCN12L1E0?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=580a046f04d3013b94135b64&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
Parlez-vous Brexit? EU negotiator wants Brits to talk French

Many British diplomats in Brussels are fluent in French but ministers and Whitehall officials share with their fellow Britons the distinction of being among the poorest linguists in Europe.

Other officials involved in preparing for Brexit said they were unaware of Barnier proposing to use mainly French. But some have said that his task force, currently numbering 15 staff and including no Britons, has been conversing mainly in French.

Barnier is trolling us once more saying that talks should be in French again. Can I also ask why the hell the officials preparing for Brexit seem not to be aware of Barnier's previous comments about French?! They should start reading MN if that's the case.

Jennifer Rankin ‏@JenniferMerode
Angela Merkel with hint of a smile on #lebrexit : 'if I am correctly informed we are all entitled to speak in our native tongue.'

Michael Russell ‏@Feorlean (Scottish MSP)
Met with @DavidDavisMP & @DavidMundellDCT, made clear @scotgov against hard Brexit & wants negotiating structure

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Unicornsarelovely · 21/10/2016 14:52

They were annoyed that the referendum campaign was so poor and badly managed and also that Cameron left and abandoned the country. That's not what Churchill did.

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 14:54

But the cons were elected with a manifesto promise to hold a referendum...or were they annoyed that he hadn't won the referendum?

Two things I think - that he had run away both from the job of PM and from his constituency, and that the manifesto also promised to support the Single Market, which has now been forgotten. Plus the xenophobic rhetoric at the Tory party conference absolutely appalls many moderate Tories.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 21/10/2016 15:00

Goldsmith's rebelling over Heathrow, or has he changed his position on Brexit?
He was very much Leave.

LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 15:28

Other officials involved in preparing for Brexit said they were unaware of Barnier proposing to use mainly French. But some have said that his task force, currently numbering 15 staff and including no Britons, has been conversing mainly in French.

Of course now the UK - let's be honest, in the shape of England - has trumpeted it's decision to leave the EU, the entire centre-of-gravity as regards what language(s) should be supreme can be revisited. Removing the UK (in the shape of England) also removes the largest single Anglophone nation and would effectively gift the French their long-held dream of suppressing English.

And given the UK (in the shape of England)s disdain for the Irish, it's hard to see why they would champion English, when they can speak Gaelic.

By all means, poke a stick into a wasps nest. But don't act surprised when they swarm and sting you.

whatwouldrondo · 21/10/2016 15:36

Chardonnay Goldsmith was a Brexit campaigner but he and Tania Mathias, the MP for next door Twickenham, rebelled in the Commons vote on EU nationals. I think the thing about Zac is that although unconscious of his own implicit racism and misogyny he is principled. He was the free market type of Brexiteer. He seems to have really believed that the Conservatives would not agree to Heathrow, hence the promise and hence he will keep it. He may realise that he needs to be a soft Brexiteer if he is not to be vulnerable in a by election or he may have done a deal with Tania who is a citizen of the world remainer (she has been an aid worker in the Middle East) .

Anyway I shall certainly be getting on the bus to campaign for the Libdems.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 21/10/2016 15:43

His constituency was strongly Remain, so that makes sense.

RiceCrispieTreats · 21/10/2016 16:36

That Barnier story is just a journo trying to get a juicy headline. He has no source, and Barnier himself has denied it.

The only facts in this non-story are that Barnier is not comfortable in English, and his own working language with his team is French. Which is nothing surprising.

Also, he is not "heading" the negotiations : Article 50 states that it is the Council, ie. the 27, who are doing the negotiating with the departing member state. The European Parliament and Commission just nominated Verhofstadt and Barnier, respectively, as their representatives in the negotiations, in order to try and get a look in by appointing two well-respected and well-connected heavyweights.

But the responsibility of negotiations lies with the Council. Ie. the people who weren't best pleased with May at dinner last night.

ManonLescaut · 21/10/2016 16:46

Goldsmith is rebelling over Heathrow because he's MP for Richmond which is under the flight path. He lives in Barnes which is too, although the planes aren't as low.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 16:49

This GE stuff. I am just looking through data

I would say the following would be a nice target for Lib Dems:

Anything in the South West, Rural, Voted Remain, Labour not really a threat to seat, Had a good showing in 2010 even if they didn't win the seat.

North Somerset, Rural, Leave vote estimated at 0.48, Labour not really a threat to seat, LD's came second in 2010 (Cons had a 7,862 that year).

Just saying that's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Hello Liam Fox. Grin
Oh yes. If I was Lib Dem HQ you would be firmly on my hit list.

(I'll try and find some more interesting ones at some point. I want to try and get an idea of potential places to watch and make a list).

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CeciledeVolanges · 21/10/2016 16:53

Jacob Rees Mogg's seat. Or the one next door which "infected" it (his words) during the referendum

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 16:55

lemasabachthani ‏@lemasabachthani
CANADIAN TRADE MINISTER SAYS IS EVIDENT THAT EU IS NOT NOW CAPABLE OF HAVING TRADE AGREEMENT EVEN WITH CANADA

George Magnus ‏@georgemagnus1
Ok - so there goes another model we won't be able to follow. And Canada's shd have been rel easy and still might. Our case is more complex

CETA dead = Bad news for a British Deal.

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ManonLescaut · 21/10/2016 16:56

I'm not sure how principled Zac is given his racist mayoral campaign, which now looks like the prologue to the Leave campaign. I think he just really, really doesn't want more planes overhead.

tiggytape · 21/10/2016 16:56

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiggytape · 21/10/2016 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 17:02

North East Somerset is Rees Mogg Land.

Rural, Leave vote estimated at 0.52, Labour not really a threat to seat but they got 24% of the vote in 2015 and 31.7% in 2010 so perhaps would take quite a few potential votes off the LDs (2010 majority for cons over Lab was 4,914)

That makes it a tough game for the LDs as there is competition from Labour there. Plus it looks a leave area - just.

Not as doable as Foxy.

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