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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
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jaws5 · 17/10/2016 19:28

I had the form and had two questions: Country of birth and nationality.

SwedishEdith · 17/10/2016 19:32

Just catching up.

I presume Woolfe is quitting to be leader in Banks' new party?

And I, too, have wondered if the hard Brexit narrative is too make it so unattractive it allows a way back. Maybe Amber Rudd took one for the team, so to speak. "I'll deliver the bad news and take the flak as it means we'll end up back to where I wanted to be in the first place". Well, not likely probably but...

As an aside, look at Ciaran Jenkins wiki entry en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaran_Jenkins He's amazing and still so young.

Peregrina · 17/10/2016 19:35

True, Bathroom I just can't see why they were asking the Nationality one. Given the way that some schools interpreted the instructions about the questionnaire it's difficult to not believe that there was a most definite undercurrent of racism or that this undercurrent was being tapped into.

Peregrina · 17/10/2016 19:37

Maybe Amber Rudd took one for the team,

Don't think so somehow.

Kaija · 17/10/2016 19:38

MakeMine, I know it's taboo to speculate about posters' identities and motives on MN, but given what we know about Arron Banks' and Leave.EU's use of social media, and the importance of MN now in UK politics, it is inconceivable to me that there wouldn't have been some sort of coordinated effort from them on here in the run up to the referendum. And that's certainly what it looked like.

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 19:39

"jaws the gov response was "different people will choose different words"
Goodness. She hasn't condemned Holiday's petition? She should have either ignored it completely as a ridiculous and reckless act or she should have stressed that any bullying and intimidation by Brexiters towards Remeainers is completely unacceptable. Her response lends Holiday's stupid petition credibility by saying, if he had used different words (to the same effect) it would ave been acceptable.

To me this suggests T. May is either a reactionary ideological Brexiter or she is utterly incompetent. Or both.

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 19:42

"Which brings us back to the dichotomy: Is TM being strategic or is she a fanatic?" Based on what I have been reading, much of it linked to on these brilliant threads, I suspect May is not strategic at all. I do not get the sense that she is a smart strategist at all. More conservative head teacher who wants to rule her school type.

whatwouldrondo · 17/10/2016 19:43

Interesting thoughts Red

Remember Gove did not just target media studies, his history curriculum for up to age 14 which historians criticised as creating a narrative that supported Tory ideology in the tradition of "My Island Story" and in so doing taking ownership of history in support of political power in much the same way as the CCP, is being taught in non academy schools now. I am not sure how many academies, for whom it was voluntary, rebelled. it was certainly not supported by many historians. Criticism was dismissed as coming from the Marxist left (like Niall Ferguson who ultimately came out to criticise it Hmm )

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 19:47

Yes, I too keep coming to the conclusion that TM is a reactionary fanatic too, I wish I didn't...

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 19:48

Good point kaija and oddly reassuring. I would rather believe there are a few rabid hate-encouragers spreading themselves around all over the place, hiding behind different identities, than accept these views are widespread amongst seemingly sane and rational sectors of society.

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 19:49

"Asked if Theresa May viewed support for the EU as treason, a Downing Street spokeswoman said:
"Different people will choose their words differently. The prime minister is very clear that the British people have made their decision."" - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37677973

That reads to me like the spokesperson has given a response without actually bothering the PM, precisely because the petition is ridiculous.

jaws5 - the language question was answered by teachers, who had to assess how fluent pupils were in English on a sliding scale, it wasn't on any forms which went out to parents.

SwedishEdith · 17/10/2016 19:52

Me neither Peregrina.

it is inconceivable to me that there wouldn't have been some sort of coordinated effort from them on here in the run up to the referendum.

Totally agree Kaija. Think we all know who they were.

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 19:53

Ah, ok bathroom! Thanks 😊

Kaija · 17/10/2016 19:56

Spotted in a country pub (via Twitter)

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 20:00

Red if you don't have a blog, now is the time to start! You can get by for a few days just copying and pasting past posts here! I bet you would get an audience.

Kaija · 17/10/2016 20:02

Yes, I'd second that

SwedishEdith · 17/10/2016 20:14

Interesting
Netherlands: European Union Membership Referendum, peil.nl poll:

Remain 68% (+17)
Leave 32% (-17)

As someone has just tweeted, "Just look at that swing, 17%. The Dutch have collectively taken a look at #Brexit, shuddered, and realised the potential horror of #Nexit."

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 20:22

"Different people will choose their words differently. The prime minister is very clear that the British people have made their decision."

Gosh, is everything the government and bexiters say now followed by the affirmation "the British people have spoken"?

It reminds me rather of Karl May's Winnetou where any poignant comment by the fictitious Indian chief is followed by Howgh, I have spoken".

Accoring to the novel 'Hough' is an Indian affirmation and means something like 'amen', 'basta', 'that's the way things are'.

"Howgh, the British people have spoken."

Confused rather tribal, I think?

prettybird · 17/10/2016 20:30

Ds (16) has just asked if Theresa May is deliberately trying to piss off the Scots.

"The Prime Minister is very clear that the English British people have made their decision."

So essentially, shut up Scots - we never need to listen to you as we will always outnumber you. HmmAngry

Ds will be able to vote in the next Indyref.....

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 20:53

I feel someone has to speak up for Northern Ireland here. Especially since "Britain" technically doesn't include NI, it is short for Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 20:54

Swedish maybe they are looking at us and realising how much better the EU looks without us there. I was rather looking forward to my free trip to Australia when I got transported for life :(

prettybird · 17/10/2016 21:11

You're right Cecile.

It irritates me at every Olympics when they go on about "Team GB" (there is a reason for it, but for me that misses the point).

It's also pretty telling that there isn't an adjective for "citizen of the UK" Hmm even after 300 years Wink

And for too many people (both here and abroad) English is synonymous with British. Confused

LurkingHusband · 17/10/2016 21:56

"Different people will choose their words differently. The prime minister is very clear that the British people have made their decision."

And (repeating myself earlier), the Minister for Brexit is quoted:

As David Davis once observed: "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 22:13

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/17/philip-hammond-not-lone-voice-caution-on-brexit
Sorry if you've seen this, but it seems that Hammond is getting support from some big names. It lessens the chances of him getting fired...

prettybird · 17/10/2016 22:30

....But they're "experts" HmmHmmHmmShockShockShock you can't possibly listen to them

Wink
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