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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Lilabee · 17/10/2016 17:33

Just had a brief look at Bitter Lakes, I love the style, it's poetic and artistic, i look forward to watching the rest later or perhaps I'll watch HyperNorm first with dh tonight. Would love to start watching right now ironically with some popcorn but must prepare tea....

Kaija · 17/10/2016 17:46

"The more I start to think about it, the more that I feel that whilst fighting for liberal thought, you also have to find a way out for people who have voted Leave to save face and find their 'own truth', so they too are able to say that the way they voted was right (even if Brexit is wrong)."

Yes. I have been thinking that it must be becoming easier for many moderate Leavers to do this since the government is taking such an extreme stance. Theresa May's stark statement that there is no more money for the NHS has got to help too.

But even if the tide of opinion is turning, how is this measured or even registered? How much difference does it actually make at this point?

By the way, did you all see May's stunningly tepid response to the treason petition?

Figmentofmyimagination · 17/10/2016 17:52

Here's a good event if you are in London -

www.historyandpolicy.org/events/event-listing/brexit-past-present-and-future-perspectives

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 17:52

What did TM say Kaija

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 17:59

Yes I thought that Kaija

jaws the gov response was "different people will choose different words"

Appalling!

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 18:05

Unacceptable! Does TM not care about her reputation outside little England?

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 18:13

Kaija I have had the same thoughts re the government's tactics here. Why are they taking such an extreme approach to a "hard" Brexit? Of course in reality the only Brexit possible is a "hard" one, but they don't have to be being so provocative. The suspicion I have is that they might be trying to soften the public up to accept an eventual "we tried but it's not possible folks, sorry". The schools information request sheet was particularly odd: they surely knew this would provoke outrage and fear, and it was totally unnecessary since they already have the information anyway! So why risk upsetting people to this degree......unless that was their true intention?!

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 18:14

Stephen Woolfe has quit Ukip and will now be an independent MEP. He won't be standing for leader. Some speculation the investigation into the fight was not going to go well for him.

The ever-flexible Ukip rules book has now been amended to allow Suzanne Evans to stand (presumably because Farage is distracted shilling for Trump and hasn't noticed), and they reckon they will have a new leader by Nov 28th.

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 18:15

Makemine - the school census was amended last year so that it would include the information asked for this time around, it really didn't have anything at all to do with Brexit, other than unfortunate timing.

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 18:16

But having said all that (see above!) this theory would only work on the assumption May is playing all the far right bunch: IDS, Redwood, Howarth, Rees Mogg etc. I imagine she might have collided with Boris though?

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 18:17

Which brings us back to the dichotomy: Is TM being strategic or is she a fanatic?
About the petition, quite a few Guardian comments suggested that people are signing in order to push up the numbers, do this madness has to be debated at HoC!

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 18:18

If TM's aim was to kill off Ukip so there's no loud opposition to backtracking on Brexit, she's not doing badly...

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 18:18

Yes, the school census was planned in May, I read...

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 18:18

Ah, ok, thanks Bathroom......was the timing set or was it flexible and implemented now?

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 18:19

Sorry jaws cross post!

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 18:20

colluded with Boris (not collided.....though maybe that too!)

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 18:21

I couldn't help think of these three tweets I saw last Thursday after watching Hypernormalisation (yes I got the name wrong).

Samuel Lowe ‏@SamuelMarcLowe
I just received a letter from my Grandad, dated 10.06.16. It ends:

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SapphireStrange · 17/10/2016 18:25

By the way, did you all see May's stunningly tepid response to the treason petition?

It is outrageous. I can't find a definitive source for it though; the best I've found is the Huffington Post report on it. Anyone got anything different? I'll feel able to tweet May/write to my MP etc once I have a solid source.

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 18:30

Some speculation the investigation into the fight was not going to go well for him.

Which investigation? The UKIP one or the EU one.

(will he be kicked out of the European Parliament? Potential By-election?)

Isabel Oakeshott ‏@IsabelOakeshott
I understand UKIP is £800k in debt and on brink of financial collapse. Three big donors withdrawing. Party leadership? Who'd want it!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/17/ukip-is-ungovernable-i-hoped-to-be-leader---instead-today-i-quit/
UKIP is ungovernable. I hoped to be leader. Instead today I quit
by Steven Woolfe.

Question:
What happens if UKIP collapses before the next GE?

The Tories wanted to half the Kipper vote thinking they could get up to an extra 40 seats. Would this happen though?

If it does collapse there is not enough time to set up a new party if May decides to trigger an early election or one is triggered by a vote of no confidence.

UKIP not being in the frame is a potential game changer.

OP posts:
TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 18:49

It reads like the Ukip one, Red.

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 42m42 minutes ago
Breaking: Steven Woolfe quits UKIP... possibly before he was booted out over Punch-gate anomalies (ht @AlexForsythBBC)

What happens if Ukip collapse? On a GE level, I expect Carswell will go back to being a Tory non-entity. It would have more effect at a local level, I would guess, because of the number of councillors they have, although given that they are fairly often fighting and falling out and defecting to be Tories or Independents, I would guess it would seem like business as usual.

prettybird · 17/10/2016 18:54

Your post about different generations' perceptions Red reminds me of a conversation dh had with his mum a while ago: that in effect each generation has a unique perspective and experience.

In his/my case, we are the only generation to be now Blush in our 50s in the "Teens". (I think at the time he said "In our 30s in the 90s"). Our challenges are unique to our life circumstances at that age and in that time.

In the same way that ds, a Millenium baby, will be facing his own unique combination of challenges - currently a teenager in the Teens. Heaven knows what he'll face in his 20s in the 20s Shock

For the record, my dad, turning 80 at Christmas, voted Remain (and Yes in the Indyref). Grin

Kaija · 17/10/2016 19:02

"UKIP not being in the frame is a potential game changer."

Question is, is it Labour or Arron Banks who benefit from all the newly homeless kippers?

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 19:10

Gosh red very thoughtful and intelligent.

I too have had the same feelings recently. I felt very angry with some of the 70-somethings in my acquaintance who voted out and got quite cross with my "Remain" viewpoint, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about and their "older and wiser" opinions trumped mine. In recent days my anger has softened into acceptance that they thought they were doing the right thing......just as passionately as I did.

I still don't understand the stance of others though. Some of the angry, rude and provocative comments by certain Leave posters on here are bizarre. There are people who seem to revel in the chaos we have inflicted on ourselves - they just want upheaval, of any kind.

Peregrina · 17/10/2016 19:21

the school census was amended last year so that it would include the information asked for this time around, it really didn't have anything at all to do with Brexit, other than unfortunate timing.

So they were racist all along then? If the objective was to give support to children without English as a first language, then it fails miserably by not asking the right question. Consider this scenario - child born in Ghana to English mother and Ghanaian father, so has a Ghanaian passport. Grows up in English speaking home, but will look as though they are foreign. Tell me they won't be discriminated against, and I will find it hard to believe you.

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 19:26

peregrina - I'm not saying the census questions were correct or necessary, just that they were not a result of Brexit, the questions would have been asked whichever way the vote went.

The language question was separate to the nationality one, though.