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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
prettybird · 17/10/2016 22:34

....Meant to say "the elite", not experts - got sidetracked before posting. Same principle though. Wink

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 22:38

Thank you. I'm not sure about a blog. I'm terrible at setting up things like that as much as anything!

Conor James McKinney ‏@mckinneytweets
Here are six potentially interesting questions that the judges in the Article 50 case asked today. From transcript:
www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/20161017-all-day.pdf

  1. Discussion of whether making laws at EU level is a prerogative power or delegated legislative power
  2. Do we both sides accept that UK can't give conditional notice under Article 50 - pending Parliament's approval, for example?
  3. On the need for legislation if leaving the EU is to take effect in domestic law, not just international
  4. A note of concern about the notion that domestic law rights can be removed by using prerogative power to pull out of a treaty
  5. The Lord Chief Justice badly wants to know how far the government thinks it can go it alone on Article 50
  6. If the government were to negotiate away EU law rights, "what can Parliament do about it?" after the fact?

peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/the-article-50-court-case-doesnt-matter.html
Eurosceptic Peter North on why the a50 case doesn't matter.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/17/philip-hammond-not-lone-voice-caution-on-brexit?CMP=twt_gu]]
Hammond not alone. He's just the only one urging caution loudly. Unlike the gobby Brexiteers.

Brexit Central is now home to Matthew Elliott who ran the Leave campaign.
brexitcentral.com/
I love this article:
brexitcentral.com/lesley-katon-must-not-allow-remainers-alone-dictate-terms-brexit/
We must not allow remainers alone to dictate the terms of Brexit.

I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering why after being told by lots of Leavers that it was Remainers responsibility to come up with a viable plan for Brexit (because they didn't have one), apparently its now wrong for Remainers to be dictating it all - despite the fact that Remainers are not currently getting any say hence why the opposition debate was on the subject last week.

www.ft.com/content/15dadb7e-944d-11e6-a80e-bcd69f323a8b
The markets hold more sway than Theresa May
If it leaves consumers feeling pinched, the pound’s post-referendum fall will change public opinion

Voters do not recognise the Japanese bargain. They see no trade-off between tradition and growth. They want to curb free movement and rampant markets, and expect to do so at near-zero cost. Leavers did not win the referendum by exploiting a new tolerance for economic risk. They won by refuting any economic risk. Britons did not brave the bleak projections of the Treasury and the professors, the international bodies and the domestic employers. They just disbelieved them.

If this is what happened in June, then fear for Mrs May and the politicians associated with exit. There is a world of difference between a mandate for painless change and a mandate for change at some material cost. The prime minister would be prudent to assume that voters are unprepared for a drop in their standard of living, that this is still a nation of amazing sensitivity to even minor changes in the way wages relate to prices. If a consumer-rights campaigner such as Martin Lewis commands near-royal levels of affection, it is for a reason. If governments tend to fall not long after devaluations, it is for a reason.

Though the Express Front page tomorrow says:
Cheaper Food After EU Exit

Experts now say that prices will come down
Breaking free of the EU will send the cost of food tumbling, economic experts said yesterday.
Their report predicts "staggering" food price rises for consumers in Europe which the UK can avoid through Brexit.
Productivity on British farms is being strangle by red tape under the EU Common Agricultural Policy it warns.
The report was released as Europhile former deputy prime minister Nick Clegg was slammed for predicting "inevitable" rises in the price of food and drink if the Government opts for a "hard Brexit". Mr Clegg, who has admitted he is plotting to derail Brexit, said grocery bills will bear the knock on costs of "whopping" tariffs on imported Foods.

The report is from the Institute of Economic Affairs which is a free trade think tank (and naturally pretty Pro-Brexit and hardly any more unbiased than Mr Clegg).

Its interesting that the Express have even gone with this story though. People are worried.

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 17/10/2016 22:48

Oh my God, the Express has turned into the Ministry of Information churning out complete bollocks cheery stories to keep our plucky workers' spirits up. How can they believe that they will get away with it within days of Marmite-gate?

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 22:51

lala it's unbelievable but that kind of bullshit has worked for them for years... they'll believe it!

StripeyMonkey1 · 17/10/2016 22:58

On the upside, I dared to read the Daily Mail comments section earlier on Brexit, and it was pretty quiet - already an improvement - and the most recommended posts were anti-Brexit. Of course, that's not the average Mail reader's view but it is a welcome change.

Also the Telegraph posted these closing paragraphs to their leading article on Brexit today:

" .. A poll of 10,000 voters by the British Election Study found that six per cent of Leavers apparently regretted their decision. Were this swing reflected in a rerun of the referendum, Remain would win.

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. It would be awful to see the British people ignoring the will of the British people."

HesterThrale · 17/10/2016 23:17

Now, according to the poll on this page, 94% of people think we should NOT continue with Brexit

metro.co.uk/2016/10/16/boris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705/

Maybe not scientific, but a little cheering.

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 23:34

Oh my God, the Express has turned into the Ministry of Information churning out complete bollocks cheery stories to keep our plucky workers' spirits up. How can they believe that they will get away with it within days of Marmite-gate?

The Express will print anything as a headline. There was something on twitter the other day where they were reprinting just about every conspiracy theory floating around on facebook, and then noting in paragraph 10 that it was all bullshit, but given that they don't expect their readers to get past p2 they really don't give a toss.

They only have about 20 words which are allowed in headlines, and they cover it being too hot/cold, cancer, house prices, Diana, Ukip, Brexit/EU and benefits. I swear most days they pick random words out of a hat and then write a story which still doesn't bear any resemblance to the headline.

smallfox2002 · 17/10/2016 23:38

You forgot MM bathroom.

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 23:39

smallfox - yes, but I did that on purpose because there is a secret MN siren associated with those letters!!

TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 23:42

Oh, and I forgot to add, they write a story which has nothing in common with the headline because they know none of their readers get past para 2 so it doesn't matter.

My mother reads the DE every day, and never reads to the end where they point out none of it is true. I take the piss a lot.

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 23:46

Oh my god Red what the fuck is that article from the Express on about?!
I was at a seminar tonight which basically predicted we will lose a lot of foreign work in terms of courts, litigation and legal work, which is 1.6% of the UK's GDP, mainly because it is going to be a low priority for the government and the law is complicated and most of the treaties we have to sign up to require free movement.
Who do these people think pay for the NHS? And schools? And why do they think so many people are visiting food banks?

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 23:50

Oh my god Red what the fuck is that article from the Express on about?!
I was at a seminar tonight which basically predicted we will lose a lot of foreign work in terms of courts, litigation and legal work, which is 1.6% of the UK's GDP, mainly because it is going to be a low priority for the government and the law is complicated and most of the treaties we have to sign up to require free movement.
Who do these people think pay for the NHS? And schools? And why do they think so many people are visiting food banks?

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 23:51

Oh my goodness prettybird me too! To the extent that I went around wincing every time I heard "Team GB*.

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 23:55

And that is three posts by me starting "oh my god/goodness". Time for bed, I think I'm getting hysterical.

prettybird · 18/10/2016 00:12

Actually the "justification" for Team GB is even more flimsy than I thought
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37058920
...."because Team UK wouldn't be inclusive of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the Falklands" and "GBR was used in 1896" ConfusedHmm

Interesting that the majority of the athletes from Northern Ireland chose Ireland rather than Team GB.

If Scotland does succeed in achieving independence, then will the BOA change the team name to "Team FUKD" Wink? or is that a nasty Remainer talking the UK down Hmm (And what will the BOA call itself? Grin)

Chmeus2 · 18/10/2016 10:04

The Tory party is working seemingly hard on preparing for Brexit and negotiating a brill deal for us all.

It's probably really stressful for the Tory party and we can forgive them for seeking to destress at work by drinking themselves into oblivion. This story just broke.

"A Conservative aide has been arrested over an alleged rape in the Houses of Parliament. The 23-year-old was named in reports as Sam Armstrong, who is chief of staff to Tory MP Craig Mackinlay.

It is alleged that he took a woman to the South Thanet MP’s office after a drinking session in a bar within the Palaces of Westminster in the early hours of Friday morning.

A source told The Sun: “There were a group of Tory advisers and female guests drinking there all night. Some were very drunk indeed."

The alleged incident is said to have happened after a group were drinking in a taxpayer-subsidised bar on the House of Lords’ terrace overlooking the River Thames."

CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 10:07

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/17/to-the-tower-with-them-the-tory-councillor-with-a-novel-idea-for/
This article, I just, it leaves me speechless. What is happening? What had happened?

jaws5 · 18/10/2016 10:19

It's ironic Cecile (I hope). Can't link but read the end...Smile

Kaija · 18/10/2016 10:38

"Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. It would be awful to see the British people ignoring the will of the British people."

I love Michael Deacon.

TheBathroomSink · 18/10/2016 10:39

Yes, Deacon is the sketchwriter, so it's a comedy take on what was already an incredibly stupid idea.

CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 10:47

Haha jaws, I thought it might be ironic (really) it is more the situation that the irony is based on.

LurkingHusband · 18/10/2016 10:57

Seems T. May is obsessed with immigration ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/18/may_blocked_plans_to_bring_in_more_indian_it_workers_cable/

Former business secretary Vince Cable has said Theresa May blocked plans to bring in Indian immigrants in the area of IT, claiming the former Home Secretary was "obsessed with immigration"

jaws5 · 18/10/2016 11:01

Yes Cecile just the fact that this is being talked about says a lot about the dystopian reality we're experiencing. Surreal!

MakemineaGandT · 18/10/2016 11:46

Red have you read Rachel Sylvester's column in the Times today? She references HyperNormalisation like you did yesterday - likens current situation as a hall of mirrors where everyone is asking to reflect back to people what they want to see/hear about Brexit

MakemineaGandT · 18/10/2016 11:48

Aargh! Blooming phone changing things

  • likens current situation to a hall of mirrors
  • "asking" = "trying"
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