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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 11:35

That Nazi Tory Councillor?
Represents a district that voted Remain.

OP posts:
jaws5 · 17/10/2016 12:06

Sorry everyone! When I said about young people finding it hilarious I was referring to the enthusiastic Pro-Brexit young man on the video! I typed quickly as I was at work Blush

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 12:12

The government are at the high court and are now presenting their case.

(will try and do update on earlier arguments from this morning from the claimant).

The government are arguing that a50 is irreversible. I am guess that doing this, leaves the door open for someone to challenge this legally at some point.

Kevin Schofield ‏@PolhomeEditor
No 10: "The Prime Minister has full confidence in the Chancellor and the work he is doing." Oh dear.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Number 10: PM "has full confidence" in Chancellor, "respects the independence of the @bankofengland" and is "clear in her support" of Carney

Is this the curse of the football manager who has the full support of the board two days before he gets sacked.

Or is this the reverse of the football manager scenario?

www.cityam.com/251528/uk-facing-cliff-edge-food-prices-according-nick-clegg
The Uk is facing a “cliff edge” on food prices according to Nick Clegg

^The UK currently exports £11bn worth of agricultural products to the EU on an annual basis, with goods facing an average tariff of 22.3 per cent.
For some products, the barriers are higher still – WTO rules implement tariffs of 59 per cent on beef, 40 per cent on cheese and 38 per cent on chocolate.^

And what's more, these charges will also have to be applied to imports until a trade deal is struck.

As a result, Clegg is calling for the UK to strike either a temporary transition deal, or to retain some form of Single Market membership.

OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 17/10/2016 12:39

They find it very difficult to recruit local councillors, certainly in this borough. When I got involved in leading local activism on a non political planning issue both Conservatives and Libdems tried to recruit me with no knowledge of my actual political views. One watch of the local webcasts of Council meetings would have put me off even if I hadn't already been reduced to tearing my hair out by the disconnect between the strategy and policy documents and the bilge spouted by Council Officials (and the Planning Inspector agreed). Alpha male posturing and point scoring by aged dinosaurs who never quite made it in the national Tory hierarchy, a sort of low rent House of Commons as a consolation prize for those who did not make it (though the Leader has now earned the right to pontificate in the House of Lords). It is completely divorced from the feelings of local people who just have to organise themselves, which is why they keep getting called out by actual or threatened Judicial Reviews. Occasionally one of the non alphas get up to speak, and occasionally there is an evidenced viewpoint (which gets ignored) but more often it has you shouting at the computer screen at the sheer idiocy. It would not surprise me at all if one is a Councillor Holliday.

Strutt and Parker, for whom he works, won't like the headlines though, not exactly in sync with the brand "Ours is a collaborative environment which encourages ideas, innovation and discussion. " .........

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 12:40

www.fwi.co.uk/news/21-questions-defra-must-answer-on-brexit.htm
Farmers weekly 21 Questions for Ms Leadsom. Lets hope she can do better than Davis with his homework from Starmer.

Simon Tilford ‏@SimonTilford

  1. UK political stability is taken for granted, especially by the Brits. This is why they underestimate the gravity of the current situation.
  2. Eurosceptic politicians & and their backers in the media agitated for decades against the UK’s EU membership.
  3. They finally got their way, costing the UK the most favourable circumstances possible: SM but not €/ Schengen. + Modest budget payments.
  4. They did this by promising the earth – more money for public services, more jobs, more trade – knowing these to be untrue.
  5. Reality’s now hitting: Britain’s economy is very vulnerable & UK’s seen as unserious by erstwhile European partners and the US.
  6. Life about to get hard for those told Brexit Britain would be milk & honey: falling wages, public services cuts. www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/report/2016/economic-consequences-leaving-eu-final-report-cer-commission-brexit
  7. No doubt, pensioners will be protected from the consequences of their Brexit vote by the triple lock guaranteeing real pension rises.
  8. But challenges facing young Britons – already daunting because of housing & pensions – are rising all the time. www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/policy-brief/2016/brexit-britain-poor-man-western-europe
  9. How long before UK’s problem is holding onto its young skilled workers, not attracting ‘too many’ of other countries’?
  10. Despite engineering arguably the biggest act of self-harm by a developed country in the post war period
  11. eurosceptics say we must 'make the most of Brexit’. Anybody holding government to account is undemocratic or unpatriotic.
  12. Yet these are the same people attempting to foist a hard Brexit on a country that didn't vote for it.
  13. Former champions of ‘parliamentary sovereignty’ are denying parliament a vote on the ground Brussels mustn’t know Britain’s hand.
  14. Brussels know our hand! It knows how weak it is. Indeed, everyone but the UK government knows Britain’s options are limited.
  15. Eurosceptics are very quick to say Remainers must respect the will of the people or be responsible for deepening political divisions.
  16. But what about divisions being created by eurosceptics? Denouncing critics as unpatriotic or undemocratic will intimidate some for a bit.
  17. Then what? May et al need to build bridges or Britain could go from being a'beacon of stability to chronic instability in a few years.
OP posts:
SapphireStrange · 17/10/2016 12:46

Thanks as ever, Red, for your hard and good work.

Marking place, mainly, until I have time to catch up properly, but I wanted to say I am worried about Hammond.

I've said from the start I thought he might be the 'weak link' in all this, meaning that he would be the one to speak out against economic hara-kiri. I worry that he may decide to just quit and walk away rather than be undermined at every turn. I know that piece says he and a small group are forming a resistance against a hard Brexit, but I'm not sure that'll be enough to keep him; especially if he is being left out of meetings and generally sidelined.

On the other hand, losing her chancellor to a resignation could possibly be the finger being taken out of the dyke and start the flood of anti-Brexit or at least anti-hard Brexit fightbacks, and ultimately bring down May.

Figmentofmyimagination · 17/10/2016 13:03

On the subject of this Tory's Councillor's bizarre "treason" petition, at the moment I am reading "Stasiland" - an extraordinary book.

I was struck by this passage - thinking about what motivates people who have no power in their daily lives to take actions that are against their own interests. It comes from an interview with an ex trainer of informers -

"What was in it for the informers?" I want to know how much they were paid.

"it was pitiful actually", Bock admits. "They were hardly paid at all. ...Every now and then they might have been given some money as a reward for a specific piece of information. Sometimes they were given a birthday present".

"So why did they do it?"

"Well some of them were committed to the cause". he says, "but I think it was mainly because informers got the feeling that, doing it, they were somebody. You know - someone was listening to them .... They felt they had it over other people"...

Betrayal clearly had its own rewards: the small, deep human satisfaction of having one up on someone else".

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 13:24

Red so does Jacob Rees-Mogg...

TheElementsSong · 17/10/2016 13:54

Figment goodness, how apt!

Valentine2 · 17/10/2016 14:30

figment
That's spot on but scary.the worst result of Brexit vote for so far has been to realise how many closet xenophobes are around us. I remember that Hend Amry tweet that said something like "now you have your Trump, you may now understand the Middle East". We have our Farage.

Valentine2 · 17/10/2016 14:42

BoE say we have a "flexible" currency. Funny way of explaining away the fall of £. He didn't mention who will absorb the shock in reality.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37675907

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2016 15:39

Instead of doing Brexit related watching I've sent the past three hours watching 'Hyper Realism' on my laptop.

It is simply brilliant. It is what journalism should be. A look behind the government narrative and into those things that lie beneath the surface.

It is a very difficult watch but one that is incredibly rewarding in the end. It is a dive straight down the rabbit warren. And then back out the other side, into the here and now. Things make more sense having watched it.

It very much chimes with my world view. That is, look at what you are told, look for what you are not told, look for the missing elements, look for the contradictions, question motives and then come out with your own 'truth'. You'll never fine the 'truth' as there is no such thing as a single truth, but you might be a bit closer than merely buying into someone else's version of the truth and that in itself is a powerful force and collectively is a counterweight to the stuff of Orwellian nightmares.

I remember one lecture I went to, in my 1st year after all these years. (This is 20 years ago now). In it we were shown unbroadcast BBC and were asked, how do you make the decision about what you show and what you don't show. It was graphic footage of the 1st Iraq war. It made you realise just how sanitised western life is and how protected from the world we are. People are only just waking up to this reality as first Al Jazeera pushed the boundaries and then the internet pushed these standards. Now, I'm sure that most of the footage I saw in my lecture would be broadcast on the BBC news as the editorial policy has changed. Of course this shift distorts reality in its own way, leading to the view that the world is more dangerous and more brutal. Its more than we have simply been so protected from it - in part to control our revulsion of it.

I can't help thinking whilst watching Hyperrealism and how it sort of makes this type of point about reality and a constructed reality in which we have lived, about how Gove. He was the one who made moves to cut the amount of media studies places and he went to great lengths to criticise them and devalue them so much in the minds of the general public as being 'pointless'. Given he has been so much of the champion for post-fact rhetoric and this is clearly part of government strategy and ongoing, that a man who understands the power of media as a columnist - and has a close association with Murdoch - just how much was this a conflict of interest?

Only last week there were calls for him to be investigated by the commons select committee because of this relationship.

I had written a piece about how I started to view post-fact politics within my own little bubble of the world. I abandoned it, as I started to think 'bloody hell, this is me starting to sound like some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist in my own right'. Having watched Hyperrealism, I'm not so sure. I won't go into it now, but its made me think maybe its not so crackers afterall.

Hyperrealism is bleak and I think you could very easily come out of it thinking there is no hope and the politics of anxiety and fear have won out.

I personally don't believe that. I believe that there is something deeply human in all of us that will eventually win out against these forces. I think the mood is for a such for this and a search for something else. Its just that very few have worked out what the something else is - and they are vulnerable to being exploited as a result. Therefore the way out is to find that something and make it a tangible idea. There are people out there starting to ask the right questions and I think there are a lot of younger people who think very differently to the way of thinking that has been ongoing for the previous generation.

May, I suspect, may be trying to do that in her own way but by means which will not achieve this utopia as she lacks understanding of certain things and you can not work completely against the forces of the outside world - simply it totally lacks proper pragmatism and doesn't address the core issues there. Nor is she connected to the youth of today who are thinking in very different ways.

The more I start to think about it, the more that I feel that whilst fighting for liberal thought, you also have to find a way out for people who have voted Leave to save face and find their 'own truth', so they too are able to say that the way they voted was right (even if Brexit is wrong).

It is not wrong to feel anxious about anything - but you need to look at what's fuelling that properly, who is fuelling it and is it real? - just like anyone who suffers from anxiety. It might be illogically and irrational, but there might really be logic and rationality in there which is not illogical or irrational! (The great anxiety head fuck!)

There were also the Leavers who accused the Remainers of being afraid of change and trapped within their bubble of reality. Yes, I do think this has great truth in it. Yet also pragmatism and acceptance that revolutionary change is frankly frought with dangers which yes, should be recognised and coping strategies developed for them.

Yes something has to change. The question still remains, 'change what'. It must be framed as that. 'Leave the EU' is not the full answer.

Most people are not obsessed by power and simply want a life fear from fear and anxiety. This is essentially what the whole Brexit debate was about. Head versus heart when you start talking about it as simply national anxiety, makes way more sense than arguments over whether the facts were right or not. Its how you deal with anxiety.

Taking back control is seen as just one 'solution' to that.

Yet what as someone who suffers terribly from anxiety myself, 'taking control' is usually regarded as pretty much the worst thing you can do, as it merely feeds the anxiety. You just become trapped within ever closing walls of fear where you have to control the situation more and more.

Instead the solution to that is not to let yourself to be controlled by the anxiety and instead step back from the ever increasing desire to control more and more in a downward spiral.

I'm starting to waffle a bit now, and it probably won't make any sense at all, unless you watch Hyperrealism which will challenge your understanding of the world.

Anyway I'm off to go and do something utterly mindless and brain straining.

One final thing. The High Court said they would use the full force of the courts on anyone who tried to intimidate people challenging the government over a50. It will be interesting to see if they take action against certain newspapers or elected representatives if they continue in the vein some of them have.

Oh and David Allen Green is saying that the case could still go either way and is finely balanced but he has been pretty scathing of the government's defence.

OP posts:
TheBathroomSink · 17/10/2016 15:40

Idiot Tory councillor has been suspended www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/79937/tory-councillor-who-wanted-make-eu-support-illegal

Quick work on the part of the council leader.

TheNorthRemembers · 17/10/2016 15:41

Hadley Freeman in the Guardian on fashion and Brexit: www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/oct/17/disaster-british-fashion-industry So sad.

So much in fashion is about image and association: buy a New York label and you’re buying into the fantasy of Manhattan dynamism and power lunches; an Italian label suggests dolce vita glamour; French labels promise chic. British labels, more than any other country’s, play on such national stereotypes: ideas of heritage (the tweed, the crown), punkish rebellion and, most of all, a kind of gonzo creativity in which Britain has always taken pride. But what image, Britain, do we have now, in our post-Brexit era on the global stage? I’d wager it has a lot less to do with enviable sovereignty and more about a silly little country that cut off its nose to spite everyone’s face. Is that the sort of look people want to buy into?

I loved her weekend column as well about surely the Tories do not mean her when they want to curb immigration. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/brexit-britain-where-not-wanted

TheNorthRemembers · 17/10/2016 15:43

Red Is Hyper Realism the new Adam Curtis documentary? Bitter Lake was a real eye-opener.

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 15:52

No doubt Holiday was emboldened to post his 'petition' by the reactionary Brexit discourse. He thought he could get away with it, which is extremely worrying Hmm.

smallfox2002 · 17/10/2016 15:53

Hyperrealism is the new doc. The reason I've been knackered all day is that I stayed up and watched it all.

Its amazing.

Peregrina · 17/10/2016 15:57

And the coward Christian Holliday, runs away. Typical.

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 15:59

"He was the one who made moves to cut the amount of media studies places and he went to great lengths to criticise them and devalue them so much in the minds of the general public as being 'pointless'." Very interesting indeed. I also have a media degree which I did many moons ago and have always felt strongly that media studies, ought to be taught in schools as it is an incredibly important skill to be able to critically read media 'text' and deconstruct visual, textual, interactive media. Interetsing that Gove was getting rid of media studies.

MakemineaGandT · 17/10/2016 16:06

Red - thank you for your intelligent and eloquent posts - you somehow manage to distill my swirling thoughts and feelings into something that makes sense - I read what you write and think: "yes! That's exactly IT"!

I think what you said here is very insightful:
The more I start to think about it, the more that I feel that whilst fighting for liberal thought, you also have to find a way out for people who have voted Leave to save face and find their 'own truth', so they too are able to say that the way they voted was right (even if Brexit is wrong).

I have friends who voted out......their initial bullish confidence was slowly replaced by arms-folded defensiveness and is now into full eye-contact-avoiding nervous titter territory. They know they are wrong, but what's the point of rubbing their noses in it? We have to find a way for them to not look stupid if we want to stop in its tracks what is going on in the name of "Brexit". The people have spoken.......yes.......but they need to be able to continue to speak.........and we all need to listen

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 16:12

Red I really liked your last long post (if you still have that piece, you should publish it!)
Just one thing - the Court can't just use its powers against anyone it thinks has done something wrong. They have to be brought before it in some way, I think, however tangential. Sales LJ can't just get out of bed one morning and decide to put Farage or Dacre in contempt, no matter how much some of us might wish he could.

TheElementsSong · 17/10/2016 16:31

That was a really good post Red - lots of good for thought!

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 17:06

Is the documentary called hypernormalisation? Sorry But I am unable to find anything by curtis called hyperrealism

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 17:19

Yes, Adam Curtis HyperNormalization, bbciplayer. I started last night and will finish it later. Check out The Power of Nighmares too. His work is fascinating, visual essays more than traditional documentaries.

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