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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
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Valentine2 · 17/10/2016 01:49

I am really sorry if it has been posted here earlier/looks irrelevant. This is a link to The Sun,coining the idea that may be we could use prisoners and people on benefits to pick fruits on the farms once we rid of the free movement of labour. I am beyond angry. What is happening. It's scary.
just to get rid of this fucking fuckwit Tory tyranny, I would vote Labour essentially. Bring on the GE. It's has come down to this AngryAngry
www.thesun.co.uk/news/1985706/theresa-may-needs-to-remoaners-who-wont-accept-brexit-verdict-back-in-their-box/

Valentine2 · 17/10/2016 01:50

Sorry for the typo. I am so angry

PattyPenguin · 17/10/2016 04:45

Valentine I'm not sure it will happen. The farmers aren't going to want to wrangle unco-operative forced labour. I don't doubt a firm like Concentrix or G4S would then be brought in, at great expense to the taxpayer, to do the actual wrangling, but we all know how effective they are, so after a while the farmers would get fed up of them, too, and demand that the Government allows them a quota of visas for migrant workers.

Of course the farmers would prefer the visa route in the first place (see the NFU website). We'll have to see whether they get their wish.

mathanxiety · 17/10/2016 06:05

Has that Boris Remain report been leaked as a prelude to him positioning himself as PM then? Which would explain him allying himself with Hammond? Interesting.

I can't understand how Boris Johnson might believe he has an ounce of credibility left, let alone enough to carry him into contention as a possible leader in the wake of the pulling the rug out from under TM that will happen if she doesn't manage to send Hammond to the Gulag first.

Could he really believe that anyone would get behind him after the shenanigans he has been involved in? I think it would take many years in the wilderness before anyone stopped associating his name with the phrase 'naked self interest'. I don't think he would cope with the wilderness. The irrelevance would be too much for him. I predict he would return to being a professional gadfly 'journalism' if there is to be any interim step on the way to any particular destination.

I think the odds of 6/1 are proof of the utter irrationality we are all looking at (as proposed by old Salvador de Madariaga). All Johnson manages to convey is the image of a rat deserting ship after ship.

TheForeignOffice · 17/10/2016 06:21

I think it would take many years in the wilderness before anyone stopped associating his name with the phrase 'naked self interest'.

I also thought disgraced former defence minister Liam Fox had been consigned to the scrapheap. But in Theresa May's shiny new shit definition of "meritocracy" he is outstanding Grin

So we'll see.

mathanxiety · 17/10/2016 06:33

Wrt your most recent analysis, RTB:
A reversible a50 situation that gets the Tories out of hot water would go down like a lead balloon among many among the Leave voters. In particular a reversible a50 decision that came from the ECJ would be the trigger for insurrection imo. Too many people are too invested in the words 'sovereignty' and 'taking back control' to make acceptance of a decision from the ECJ on Brexit likely.

If TM is playing this game - secretly hoping for a decision that would in effect negate the result of the referendum, whether from the ECJ or from the British courts, then she is playing with fire. Is she a gambler?

I suspect TM is committed to Brexit and wants a hard Brexit. She was unambiguous on this in the sum of her remarks and in individual remarks at the Tory Party Conference - and I agree it is important to listen to the silences but I heard none there. I suspect TM would be happy to have more power [see the 'Three Brexiteer Wheeze' article linked above]. Your #5 (and #7) point is the most significant to take into account therefore.

Obviously the rebellion that is gathering steam will have something to say about that. Ultimately I doubt Parliament will allow itself to become a rubber stamp, not without a fight anyway (point #9).

Mistigri · 17/10/2016 06:37

^www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/16/euro-house-of-cards-to-collapse-warns-ecb-prophet/
Euro close to collapse warns economist.^
Weirdly incoherent article. Does the Torygraph not have sub-editors on duty at the weekend?

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 07:04

Valentine don't worry about being angry. I think it is good that people still have strong feelings and are willing to do something about it. The "move on with life" people are being complacent and unwilling to stand up for what they think is right imo. And I agree, this is all horrific.

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 07:07

Jacob Rees Mogg is apparently accusing the Treasury of "negativity towards Brexit". And there is a growing consensus that "high value immigration" should be unaffected by Brexit. A) unacceptable and vile, and b) who is going to come to live here?

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 07:14

Given that we aren't going to have a points system, how do you distinguish between high and low value immigrants - even assuming you can define what high and low value immigration is?

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 07:15

It all just seems to come back to that old problem, people will vote for unicorns, but then you have to find the unicorns.

PattyPenguin · 17/10/2016 07:25

merrymouse presumably they mean to use the same criteria they currently use for non-EEA immigrants.

Adding categories to the shortage occupation list and changing minimum salary rates as they deem necessary, probably depending on lobbying.

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 07:41

Fair point Patty but that would imply that people are generally happy about the way that non-EU immigration is currently managed, and I don't get the impression that that is the case.

TheElementsSong · 17/10/2016 08:44

We have gone so far through the looking glass now that it's impossible to tell which are serous suggestions and which are pisstakes, what do you all think? (This would be entirely in keeping with the opinions of some Leave posters on MN).

twitter.com/CllrHolliday/status/787207171335479296

Amend the Treason Felony Act to make supporting UK membership of the EU a crime.

The Treason Felony Act be amended to include the following offences:
'To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support UK becoming a member of the European Union;
To conspire with foreign powers to make the UK, or part of the UK, become a member of the EU.'

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 09:22

Element
WTF?

If you scroll further down on Christian Holliday's twitter page, you'll see a promo video of a young man singing praise of Brexit. Would I be forgiven to think that the style of the video is reminiscent of Nazi Youth promo films?
twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/777826135816056832

Lilabee · 17/10/2016 09:29

If not Nazi promo then total brainwash. Empty statements, pure propaganda. Sad

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 09:48

So, a quick look on Westlaw tells me that the Treason Felony Act 1848 basically makes thoughtcrime (if uttered in speech or published in writing), punishable by lifetime transportation. Section 3.

jaws5 · 17/10/2016 09:53

Funny how the many young people I know would find this hilarious!

Mistigri · 17/10/2016 09:57

Interesting and insightful exchange on Twitter this morning:

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 09:57

Hilarious how?!
And what is young? I'm young-ish and I find it devastating and terrifying.

TheElementsSong · 17/10/2016 10:04

Hilarious how?!

Free all expenses paid trip to Australia? Grin

maizieD · 17/10/2016 10:17

Someone in my twitter timeline suggested that we petition for mandatory IQ tests for people running for public office.

I find it very scaring that people like councillor Holliday even exist.

TheElementsSong · 17/10/2016 10:21

That petition has 145 signatures so far. That's 145 people that it probably wouldn't be safe for me to be in a room with.

CeciledeVolanges · 17/10/2016 10:30

That was my initial thought, but read a bit about Nauru and what they do with immigrants they don't want and it becomes a bit less funny, unfortunately.

TheForeignOffice · 17/10/2016 11:10

Someone in my twitter timeline suggested that we petition for mandatory IQ tests for people running for public office

Touch screen tests held in local council offices with questions designed to validate if someone has sufficient basic understanding of the meaning and facts related to each voting option.

Pass? You get to make an informed vote. Yay for democracy.

Just kidding. Maybe.