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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
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Mynotsosedentarylife · 15/10/2016 07:38

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/letter-campaign-theresa-may-eu-nationals-stay-in-uk
Letter-writing campaign urges Theresa May to let EU nationals stay in UK
‘Write to Remain’ movement helps people email PM amid fears EU nationals will be used as bargaining chips in negotiations.

A new cross-party campaign will seek to bombard Theresa May with letters asking her to guarantee the right of EU nationals to stay in the UK.

The “Write to Remain” movement launched a website on Thursday to help people email May to press her for an explicit commitment on the rights of European nationals living in Britain and UK nationals living in other member states at the prime minister’s first Brussels summit next week.

HesterThrale · 15/10/2016 08:11

Parliament has scheduled a debate in Westminster Hall, on Monday 17th at 4.30pm, in response to 6 petitions about the EU, some pro- and some anti-EU.

The list of the 6 petitions is clickable from this page:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133767

Should be interesting.

Mistigri · 15/10/2016 08:15

Matthew Parris' article is here pastebin.com/mhxJk2Wt , read it before it gets taken down.

Mynotsosedentarylife · 15/10/2016 08:41

Meanwhile the Express is busy stirring up hatred against EU citizens )and Muslims) with various articles about disgusting foreigners and Muslims.

It seems to me that the Express is after some sort of civil war? Yes? What are they hoping to achieve with their emotive articles? Anyone here knows what the agenda of Express, Sun etc is?

Lovewhereilive · 15/10/2016 08:48

Matthew Pariss' article is spot on.

I see the daily fail is gunning for Mark Carney now.

mupperoon · 15/10/2016 09:08

They're gunning for anyone who's telling it like it is about the mess that Government has got us all in.

TheElementsSong · 15/10/2016 09:31

I see the daily fail is gunning for Mark Carney now.

That's entirely consistent with the Fail's (and Express') stance that anyone who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid is now an Enemy of The People and deserve "what's coming to them".

Kaija · 15/10/2016 10:33

Thank you, Mistigri, for that Matthew Parris article. I came up against the paywall on it this morning.

Not a cheering piece. But the more people who stand up now and say it the better.

Kaija · 15/10/2016 10:36

By the way, kids, a fun game I like to play in my local supermarkets lately is to loiter by the newspaper stands and hide The Express and The Mail under copies of the New European. Small pleasures.

Mynotsosedentarylife · 15/10/2016 10:48

kaija Grin smirk

HesterThrale · 15/10/2016 11:14

Ha ha Kaija! You have to find your fun where you can these days.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 15/10/2016 11:32

Who would replace Carney at the BoE? John Bull?

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2016 12:01

^CeciledeVolanges Fri 14-Oct-16 23:31:16
I would be interested to know which industries don't have complex supply chains...^

Yes I was thinking that yesterday. Marmitegate actually illustrates that. It also would require even more red tape than we currently have.

I know there were a couple of people commenting since the ConKip conference that May could either have manufacturing or the City but not both.

Is this a sign that she has chosen manufacturing? On the assumption that she can persuade the EU to the plan which has no guarantees.

^Martin Cooper @mpc_1968
Re tanking £. This piece was written in Feb 2016. How much lower does the £ have to go before BoE steps in?
www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-bank-england-builds-98bn-brexit-war-chest-defend-pound-1542482

Carney and co, planned for this situation.

In the article Goldman Sachs thought the pound would to at 20% below its value prior to the referendum. I would say this is now beginning to look like a conservative estimate. We are already at 17% with no sign that we have hit the bottom

The BoE is technically supposed to be independent from the Government in how it sets interest rates. It was a power taken away from the PM a number of years ago. May is making noises which suggest she wants to take that power back or is at least trying to influence policy rather than allow the BoE to act independently.

Carney is good. Very good. Replacing him would scare the markets further and drive the pound down further. If he goes I think we are in real trouble.

Express. Owned by UKIP donor.

Its worth noting how fascism in Germany came out of economic chaos. Hitler deliberately make things worse economically before he took full control of Germany by manipulating this situation. This attracted more supporters as they grew disillusioned with the current establishment as food was so expensive. Hitler used slogans about bread and work in order to win the 1932 and 1933 elections.

In that context, why might the Express want rid of Carney?

Thank you for The Times article. That was fabulous reading.

OP posts:
Figmentofmyimagination · 15/10/2016 13:16

Not only is Carney competent, he is also not a British national - and he has a forrin accent.

CeciledeVolanges · 15/10/2016 13:18

Has anyone got the Anna Soubry Times article? I've seen updates about it on Twitter but I don't have a subscription. (And can't afford it, sadly.) a précis will do :) thanks!

jaws5 · 15/10/2016 13:30

Great article by Matthew Parris. The rage of "the people" when they have to admit they've been duped as they get poorer, could be a very dangerous thing ready to be exploited by Banks and co. I wonder if they're now just waiting to act, and what they must be planning.

RiceCrispieTreats · 15/10/2016 13:40

It seems to me that the Express is after some sort of civil war? Yes? What are they hoping to achieve with their emotive articles? Anyone here knows what the agenda of Express, Sun etc is?

a) to sell more papers, and
b) the power trip that narcissists get from causing chaos.

smallfox2002 · 15/10/2016 14:32

The Express just panders to the prejudices of its readers, it sells papers.

A bit of turmoil sells more papers as people look to make sense of it all.

ToujeoQueen · 15/10/2016 14:40

The Paris article has nailed it.

ToujeoQueen · 15/10/2016 14:41

On a side note, Mark Carney is hot Grin

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2016 15:08

www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-will-probably-get-a-good-brexit-deal-but-nobody-can-say-so-a7363026.html
Theresa May will probably get a good brexit deal but nobody can say so.

This is the daftest logic going.

So Theresa May cannot announce to Parliament that she is aiminig to get x or y in her Brexit negotiations. If she doesn't get them, she will look foolish or weak. The most she can do, as Cameron did, is to try to sound out European capitals and Brussels bigwigs privately to see what sort of deal they might be prepared to accept. Even that is fraught. Just on the somple question of when she is planning to trigger Article 50, the formal two year process for leaving the EU, various private conversations have leaked

By this logic, May has to decide everything alone, like a dictator. Which is not acceptable in a parliamentary democracy so you can't ask people to agree to it.

Well maybe not the daftest. Carswell is getting some grief.

Douglas Carswell MP ‏@DouglasCarswell
Remain Pundits: "when"ll govt tell us the plan!" Govt: "Repeal Bill, Art 50 end March, free trade". Pundits: "Govt won't tell us anything!"

He is getting some grief for this.

john Graham ‏@nilsatis1
@DouglasCarswell got some magic beans and unicorns for sale i know you'll be interested

Dan 48% ‏@DanW9
@DouglasCarswell You don't just get free trade by saying the words 'free trade'.

(((Iain))) ‏@IAM568
@DanW9 Are you supposed to say it 3 times when looking in a mirror? @DouglasCarswell

Dan 48% ‏@DanW9
@IAM568 Preferably in Latin and whilst holding a headless chicken.

Klint ‏@mnitchsmith
@DouglasCarswell Thinking that "Repeal Bill, Art 50 end March, free trade" is a sufficient answer is exactly the problem.

Ian M Scott ‏@IanMScott
The very fact you can fit it all into half a tweet, @DouglasCarswell, makes the Remainers' point for them.

Ashley ‏@ashleytwo
@DouglasCarswell "free trade" isn't a plan, it's an ambition. It's like saying "I'm going to win the lottery by playing it"

Blonde Remainiac ‏@BlondeRemainiac
@DouglasCarswell another account I assumed was a parody but it actually the verified Twitter of an MP (face palm)

Quite.

OP posts:
RBeer · 15/10/2016 15:15

"Britain can't get full single market access with free movement concessions - Merkel" - uk.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN12F0DU

CeciledeVolanges · 15/10/2016 15:37

Red that logic is based on the assumption that Theresa May losing face can be equated with the disaster of not getting what she wants. Also she has said what she wants. And Davis too. "What is best for Britain." Unfortunately that is staying in the EU. What a pity.

RBeer · 15/10/2016 15:50

Unfortunately our country is not on the hand of tight wing Tories. I truly believe that all hope is lost. Murdoch won.

RBeer · 15/10/2016 15:50

Now*