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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Motheroffourdragons · 15/10/2016 15:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

jaws5 · 15/10/2016 15:53

Hammond and many MPs cannot let this happen, can they? They have to do something!

Peregrina · 15/10/2016 15:55

It does seem absolutely appalling that someone can put appeasing the rabid right of the Tory party first before what is for the good of the country. It seems that May is happy to do that, on present showing.

lalalonglegs · 15/10/2016 17:55

I agree, Peregrina, it's outrageous and also so short-term. If pursuing Brexit does keep the swivel-eyed end of the party under control, who or what do you blame when you're left with the unutterable shambles that having pursued it has created? What, in fact, do you do to make it better?

I read an interview with Alan Bennett today in which he said that, post-referendum, he would ask people who wanted selfies which way they had voted... and refused to do them if they voted out Grin.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2016 18:14

Murdoch didn't win.

The Daily Mail is Paul Dacre. The Express is Richard Desmond

Both the Sun and Times are in favour of staying in the Single Market. Murdoch does not want Hard Brexit.

Any chance of a50 not being triggered. Yes.

  1. May comes to her senses. 2) The Commons Block it. 3) The Lords Block it. 4) May loses another HoC vote on another issue 5) There is a leadership challenge to May 6) We all wake up and its the 9th January 2016 and David Bowie is still alive.

Now put these in order of probability.

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jaws5 · 15/10/2016 18:25

In light of the crazy rollercoaster of the last few weeks, any of those is possible except sadly no 6!

HesterThrale · 15/10/2016 18:27

I think many were relieved when May became PM, but ever since the moment she appointed BJ as Foreign Sec, I think we've been wondering 'what on earth is she up to?'
I now think, sadly, that there is no secret agenda, no Machiavellian plan to bring about the opposite of what she seems to be aiming for, but she is showing us who she is. She wants this. It's up to people outside the Cabinet to put pressure on to dilute, or ideally, stop it. Chances are small though. We should all write to our MPs again...

Ohchristmastreeohchristmastree · 15/10/2016 18:27

My preference would be 6, but 1-5 would be fine too.

jaws5 · 15/10/2016 18:30

Hester I agree, TM is what she seems,, nothing else as I hoped. But others in HoC and in her cabinet have both principles and vision, I have no doubt. It's our only hope now.

SwedishEdith · 15/10/2016 18:52

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-dangerous-promise-of-populism-free-money/2016/09/23/1c6595d2-81b6-11e6-8327-f141a7beb626_story.html?utm_term=.cc0e62af6a5e

Good, short piece on populism from the Washington Post.

"But even if they look and sound different, even if they know how to use social media and techniques borrowed from reality TV, the new populists do share something with the old populists. Like their predecessors, they offer fantasies: sketchy plans, vague ideas, unfulfillable promises and, eventually, free money. Far from representing something new, they stand for something old: The very human longing for rapid, unrealistic, simple solutions to difficult problems — plus more cash."

Tbh, sounds similar to the SNP.

HesterThrale · 15/10/2016 18:54

An interesting article by a German journalist about the state of Britain post-Referendum. Highlights social inequality as the driving force behind Brexit.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.spiegel.de/international/europe/united-kingdom-and-brexit-searching-for-the-true-britain-a-1116325-amp.html?client=safari

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2016 19:06

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
On what the government should prioritise when negotiating Brexit:
Reducing migration: 39%
Favourable trade deals: 49%
(via ComRes)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-people-want-a-soft-brexit-putting-the-economy-ahead-of-cutting-immigration-poll-a7363336.html
British people want a soft Brexit putting the economy ahead of cutting migration - poll.

Now Mrs May, about that mandate....

Matthew Holehouse @mattholehouse
Merkel talks consistently about UK not getting "full" single market access. May about seeking "maximum possible". On the same page...

I'm glad someone else picked up on the language. I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying they were on the same page though.
Besides. Spain. Gibraltar. Veto

Steve Peers @StevePeers
A couple of thoughts on UK govt subsiding Nissan etc. I once worked at a foreign car firm that had fought an anti-dumping law case. The substantive rules on dumping are different from subsidies, but the process and (usually) outcome is same: extra tariffs

The company won its case, but it had spent a lot on legal and other costs, and management time, which they couldn't recover.

For those who don't know, anti-subsidy and anti-dumping laws don't apply to trade within EU - or EEA (for most products).

Guy Jenkinson ‏@GuyADJ
@StevePeers But state aid policies do apply which regulates subsidies etc in the internal market, right?

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
@GuyADJ Yes, state aid law substitutes for WTO subsidies rules. EU rules are stricter but naive to think total subsidy freedom post-Brexit.

Tim Ashton ‏@Tim_Ashton
@StevePeers but to lawfully do this aid you are going to need an act, no?

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
@TimAshton I don't know if new Act of Parl required to give aid to industry - the domestic mechanics don't change anything re WTO law tho.

Simon Lester @snlester
If post-Brexit UK-EU trade relationship does not exclude AD/CVD/Safeguards, negotiators have messed up horribly.

Steve Peers @StevePeers
Yes, my point is that rEU car firms etc could bring complaints against subsidised UK exports to EU post-Brexit (if UK is not in EEA)

May's Brexit Cabinet is on the case though, with several lawyers being members Hmm

Car crash waiting to happen. May has now made a promise to Nissan of some sort. If this promise is the same sort that she gave to Sturgeon....

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/14753/is-the-governments-refusal-to-publish-the-brexit-cabinet-committee-secrecy-or-incompetence/
Is the Government’s refusal to publish the Brexit cabinet committee secrecy or incompetence?

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tiggytape · 15/10/2016 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNorthRemembers · 15/10/2016 19:24

I know who they want to lead the BoE. MIL reads the DM and she keeps saying to me that the nice Englishman who was governor before the horrible Carney should come back. DMIL has no interest in finance, never heard of Mervyn King before. She must have got it from the Daily Fail. When I said "Don't you think Mervyn King was asleep at the wheel before the financial crisis?" I had a blank look in response.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2016 19:36

The YouGov poll is from 3 Oct. This is prior to most of the Tory Party conference and the plunge of the pound.

It is quite possible that it is the way the questions have been worded.

The question for You Gov was:

  1. Which would you rather, faced with only the following two options:
A 'hard Brexit', in which Britain leaves the European single market in order to regain full control over immigration

A 'soft Brexit', in which Britain accepts a modified form of freedom of movement in order to remain in the single market

YouGov had 14% Don't knows

The ComRes one asked.
For each of the following pairs of statements, which comes closest to your own opinion:
The government should priortise reducing immigration when negotiating the UK's exit from the EU.
The government should priortise getting favourable trade deals with the EU countries when negotiating the UK's exit from the EU.

ComRes had 11% Don't knows

Imo I would say that the YouGov one is perhaps the less easy one to understand - how you define hard or soft brexit might have influence (even with the accompanying description). But this is just my opinion, and I have no idea if there is any truth in this.

Equally the events of the past two weeks may have had an impact and people may have changed their minds or changed their understanding of the situation.

Eitherway, it still brings this Single Market mandate very much into sharp question.

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smallfox2002 · 15/10/2016 19:53

Its still not overwhelming though is it?

tiggytape · 15/10/2016 19:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SwedishEdith · 15/10/2016 19:57

Tory MEP Edward McMillan-Scott has written to voters in Witney asking them to vote Lib Dem. It's on Twitter so can't copy but on Mike Smithson's account. I know it won't overturn the Tory majority but still... interesting.

Kaija · 15/10/2016 20:03

You get quite a different picture once you factor in how much people are willing to sacrifice personally to restrict freedom of movement:

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
Kaija · 15/10/2016 20:04

Here's the version for Brexit voters only:

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
TheElementsSong · 15/10/2016 20:06

Kajia In other words people are rather eager to get rid of immigrants as long as somebody else carries the can? Rather lacking the courage of their convictions.

Lilabee · 15/10/2016 20:10

The Spiegel article is interesting. The author concludes that Britain is deeply divided who would have thought however fails to acknowledge that this divide is not just due to austerity but also due to existing class structures and above all due to the British tabloid media. I personally believe that without the hatred disseminated by the British tabloid media Brexit wouldn't have happened and the country wouldn't be divided as it is.

I lived many years in Germany and read German news. None of the German tabloids (and they are nasty, sexist papers) today, or in recent years, would print such xenophobic and racist bile as done every single day by the British tabloid. In my opinion The Mail and similar newspapers are subversive and disturb the peace of this once amazing country.

CeciledeVolanges · 15/10/2016 20:11

Isn't that a sort of overarching problem though? The whole debate and the work of Farage, Banks et al have made xenophobia, racism and isolationism acceptable again. And the government must love to have Europe there so they can blame them for everything. When we leave it will be their fault. xxx

CeciledeVolanges · 15/10/2016 20:12

Xxx was accidental, but have them anyway.

Lilabee · 15/10/2016 20:55

May and Rudd failed to reveal the racist and unprofessional behaviour of Dame Justice Lowell Goddard to the Home Affairs Select Committee. DJLG got a £90,000 payoff despite behaving in a racist way at the work place and stated her reasons for resigning were due to feeling a long way from home.
Confused the prime Minster is going from bad to worse.