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Brexit

Pro-Leavers - please help

400 replies

CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 08:07

Good morning.
I am following a lot of conversations and events about the referendum and there are a lot of assertions about "what the referendum was about" and "why people voted" and "what people want."
I just wanted to ask, neutrally, if you believe that we should leave the EU what good things do you want to happen or believe will happen when we do?
I can't account for anyone else, but I have seen some really nasty referendum threads and I often get upset about it myself, so I want to say I will not attack or even argue with anyone, I'm just interested to hear the wishes and opinions of people who want positively to leave. It is such an emotive issue - not least to me - and maybe there are some views we haven't heard yet.
Thanks if you do answer! And thanks for reading.

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 17/10/2016 09:22

Leavers attempt to shut down conversation because when they do post their reasons for leaving e.g EU army, immigrants taking jobs etc, they are so easy to disprove that it probably makes them feel embarrassed.

Imagine how you would feel if on the biggest political event of our time (currently), when oodles of objectively written information was available, you made your choice and your ignorance was exposed?

user1470043860 · 17/10/2016 11:33

pbs.twimg.com/media/Cu6XKF8XEAEvbx7.jpg

Petronius16 · 17/10/2016 15:03

user that map doesn't make sense to me - what's the source, please?

Happy to be told I'm wrong, but if the majority of the country voted neither what's all the fuss about?

Tryingtosaveup · 17/10/2016 21:38

I am not embarrassed.
It is quite true that immigrant children are putting pressure on school places. I don't think we would be short of school places if there were not as many immigrant children.
And it is also quite true that a lot of child benefit money is sent abroad to support EU children whose parents are here.
Quite simple really. Two different lots of children.
I really thought you could work this out by yourselves.

winkywinkola · 17/10/2016 21:45

Tryingtosaveup, if you could substantiate your claims that would be great. Thanks.

smallfox2002 · 17/10/2016 21:48

"It is quite true that immigrant children are putting pressure on school places."

87 % of British school children got their first choice primary school this year. When you consider that as far back as 2010 it was noted that because school places had been cut as there had been falls in population up until then, that these places would need to be replaced. This hasn't happened as funding to schools has been cut and directed towards free schools and academies.

"And it is also quite true that a lot of child benefit money is sent abroad to support EU children whose parents are here."

The largest estimate on this is that it is £30 million or so pounds, in fiscal terms a drop in the ocean. The entire child benefit bill is £11.2 bn, so 0.2% of the child benefit bill goes to children in the EU. Even that figure is the largest it could be, it is highly likely that it is lower because not all children get the full amount paid.

Be embarrassed, you don't know what you are talking about.

DoNotBringLulu · 17/10/2016 22:48

I read the figure of child benefit being sent to EU countries was even lower than Smallfox's figure quoted above. Notice there is no mention of the 4 billion EU migrants pay in taxation.

Tryingtosaveup · 17/10/2016 23:26

I do know what I am talking about, small, you just agree with me, which is fine.
And if you want things substantiating, Winky, that's fine. Look them up yourself.

smallfox2002 · 17/10/2016 23:33

You don't know what you are talking about, 0.2% of the entire CB bill is nothing, certainly not a reason to vote out of the EU.

prettybird · 18/10/2016 00:19

Smallfox - in Scotland everyone gets their catchment school. Smile

We've even built new schools in areas where there are rising school rolls Grin

smallfox2002 · 18/10/2016 00:31

Sorry Prettybird 87% of primary schools children in England.

Its a pretty good figure, seeing as there are a lot of shennanigans with school choices.

seekingwisdom4me · 18/10/2016 06:06

There were advantages and disadvantages on both sides. I ended up coming down on the leave side because I believe the EU is getting too aggressive and bossy. I still like Europeans though.:)

In terms of immigration, yes we have to take refugees, it is morally right and humanitarian. However this idea of unlimited immigration/free for all seems crazy. There are people here already who have spent years on housing lists, there are patients waiting years for hip replacements, as for schools - it's dog eat dog already. TBH I always thought it unfair that if you work and earn just over the WTC amount, your kid stands less of a chance of getting into nursery or school. It is only fair that immigrant and refugee families are spread out and integrated even in the hallowed middle class areas - so how many spaces do you think they should allocate at your kids (intended)school? They will fulfill the social security criteria. If there are some newcomers - fine but open ended, limitless? Really? It wouldn't even be fair on the refugees that do get in. If you really feel your response is yes, why not throw your doors open now and go completely communist? But no, the people agreeing with these open door policies are champagne liberal socialists and are insulated from the demands of struggling normally surveying the plebs from their townhouses and ever so european au pair darling. (Stop being so tight, pay the girl a living wage and ripping off a poorer european).
Also this European Border Army they have been planning - again controlled by Brussels. That makes me deeply uncomfortable. Anyway this whole thing may be irrelevant if the Euro fails the EU will break up. Deutche Bank, Commerz Bank and the italian banks look really dodgy. Friends of friends who work in Deutche Bank are expecting it to fail.
By already going for Brexit we will be quicker off the starting blocks :)

Bearbehind · 18/10/2016 07:34

And if you want things substantiating, Winky, that's fine. Look them up yourself.

It would be nice if, just for once, you could back up your own claims trying.

small has given you data, you've said you don't agree so prove it.

It couldn't possibly be that you made it up and jumped to your own conclusion could it?

winkywinkola · 18/10/2016 08:15

Lol.

Look them up yourself! Hilarious. I didn't make the claims but I'm supposed to check them out? Pathetic.

Massive unsubstantiated claims made about immigration etc and another Leave voter refusing to make sure they are valid.

We do after all live in an age where evidence is now irrelevant as is expertise and education.

winkywinkola · 18/10/2016 08:16

Tryingtosaveup, you're just making things up! Just like all those politicians.

winkywinkola · 18/10/2016 08:18

Seekingwisdom, I'm not sure about the connection you make between going completely communist and uncontrolled immigration?

Also, do you think there might be a housing shortage because we sold off our council housing stock in the '80's and haven't replaced it?

Cxc78 · 18/10/2016 08:52

I am not embarrassed.
It is quite true that immigrant children are putting pressure on school places. I don't think we would be short of school places if there were not as many immigrant children.
And it is also quite true that a lot of child benefit money is sent abroad to support EU children whose parents are here.
Quite simple really. Two different lots of children.
I really thought you could work this out by yourselves.

And I am gonna stop breathing until I go red in the face and you all have to agree with me then

Cxc78 · 18/10/2016 08:54

and thanks for explaining about the two sets of children!!! Really baffled me that one, it really did... wait a moment... are you part of the sneering metropolitan and educated elite!?!?

winkywinkola · 18/10/2016 09:12

Tryingtosaveup: "The world is flat."

Winky: "Really? That's interesting. Can you prove it to me because that would affect a lot of important decisions we make."

Tryingtosaveup: "Nah. Prove it yourself."

Petronius16 · 18/10/2016 09:27

From the weekend papers I gather BoJo and me/I have one thing in common, who'd have thought? He had a job making up his mind between what was good for the country and what was good for him.

Leave has meant food prices and fuel have increased, so my spending goes up. Interest on my savings has gone down, that is part of my income.

However, the PM (Times) has said to Nissan they won't lose out if they keep the Sunderland plant. That means the government will use money (our taxes) to keep them here, even though the good folk Sunderland voted to Leave, knowing it's a possibility their largest employer would go. That leaves me puzzled.

whatwouldrondo · 18/10/2016 10:18

Cxc I am now going to waste my time pissing in the wind again, which is what I have learnt you are doing when you try quoting a bit of reality to a leave poster on here. Not very far back trying challenged remain posters to come up with what those who voted remain would make our priorities now and how we would go about it. So several of us did in some detail. Not a word. Indeed in several months of posting I have yet to see a leave voter go down the funnel of detailed argument to defend their point of view but I am nothing if not glass half full and the school place issue is one I know a lot about because I have spent years campaigning, and been involved in the birth of a parent led free school on these pages

You think there would not be a shortage of school places if it were not for immigrants. I know there would be a school place shortage irrespective of immigration.

Back in 2010 in my borough we knew that the next five years would see a 17% increase in the number of Year 6 children, nothing to do with immigration, it was based on the birth rate from 2000 on (remember the millennium baby boom) . This is a wealthy middle class suburb with low immigration, and those that are here pay taxes just like the rest of us so you would think we could all reasonably expect sufficient school places. Our LEA knew it and Gove knew it too, it was mentioned in his speeches. This was on top of the fact that already there were only enough places in state secondaries to educate half the children in the borough. Parents knew that if they lived in certain roads they would not have the offer of a place in a good school and would have to move, home school or go private. This was handy for the LEA because it meant they filled every last school place and that was good for the budget if not parents (they have the same strategy at primary level too) The safety valve that protected the LEA from prosecution was that a couple of local schools had been made academies and handed to a sponsor who was experimenting with a weird model of computer based learning, those schools were judged OFSTED inadequate and for five years the LEA told us they were improving, they have finally conceded that was crap and pressured out the weird sponsor, in the meantime the schools were a good deterrent that kept parents conveniently removing themselves from the waiting lists.

So there you have it, as of 2010 we already had an LEA that was failing in its duty to provide sufficient school places.

On top of that we had a government trying to take the provision of new school places out of the hands of LEAs which would be fine for our borough, because they were crap, except that any new school had to be a free school and it had to have a sponsor, and a site, in our crowded urban area. Our LEA decided in the face of the looming shortage of places to give pretty much the only available site away for an exclusive faith school even though there is an overprovision of faith places, and when it came to it, Gove backed them up, but hey ho, if you are a parent faced with the current school place situation in our borough sitting in a pew is a small price to pay compared with moving or going private. Hence in the end desperate parents had to start a school of their own, it still does not have a site.

So tell me trying and Cxc how in this steaming pile of LEA incompetence and central government Gove sponsored dogma can you possibly locate immigration as the issue? I would love to know, because I have spent a fair amount of the last five years trying to hold those responsible to account .

Cxc78 · 18/10/2016 10:25

Whatwould I know immigration isn't the issue, I pointed out the fact that a child cannot take up a school place AND live in a different country getting benefits at the same time. I'm on your side, I will not waste my breath putting a well researched argument to the likes of trying as all you get is fingers in ears and loud screaming of lalalalala. Thank you for your post though.

whatwouldrondo · 18/10/2016 10:54

sorry Cxc I misread your post, blinded by five years of righteous indignation Grin

I might add that in the course of campaigning we also benchmarked other LEAs and there are some gooduns out there, who successfully forecast demand (there are some good forecasting tools available), planned and succeeded in finding places in local schools for almost all the pupils who needed them, some of those were in areas of high immigration too (because funding does actually follow the pupil regardless of where they come from).

Of course once every new school had to be a free school their competence became redundant and it all became dependent on finding a sponsor, amongst the new sponsors here we have a charitable trust set up by a company that is funded by money raised through corruption in Malaysia and then laundered via petro Saudi, all revealed in the Mossack fonsecca Hong Kong files. Hmm It is a good school and popular with parents to be fair but given a choice between a competent local LEA and such a sponsor?

Cxc78 · 18/10/2016 11:03

No apology needed 😁
I am not sure if I could stomach such an sponsor, I'd be worried any hidden agenda...

Cxc78 · 18/10/2016 11:03

*about a hidden agenda

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