Pro-Leavers - please help

[CeciledeVolanges]

Good morning.
I am following a lot of conversations and events about the referendum and there are a lot of assertions about "what the referendum was about" and "why people voted" and "what people want."
I just wanted to ask, neutrally, if you believe that we should leave the EU what good things do you want to happen or believe will happen when we do?
I can't account for anyone else, but I have seen some really nasty referendum threads and I often get upset about it myself, so I want to say I will not attack or even argue with anyone, I'm just interested to hear the wishes and opinions of people who want positively to leave. It is such an emotive issue - not least to me - and maybe there are some views we haven't heard yet.
Thanks if you do answer! And thanks for reading.

Anne, hasn't the EU acted to do things in UK government and firms favour in other countries though too?

We can enforce minimum pricing on alcohol if we leave the EU?

As examples go that's really not great- the slump in sterling is pretty much going to deal with that issue anyway and it's hardly worthy of the turmoil the Brexit process is going to cause.

I don't even agree a government should automatically have the power to introduce such 'nanny state' laws.

I was hoping 'sovereignty' was a bit more far reaching than that.

I was really enjoying this thread Cecile. It was a good idea and it had thoughtful responses.
Shame it got derailed.

Yes, another thread for leavers ruined by the usual suspects. Nothing you say makes them stop or go away, I just hope HQ are keeping an eye on them.
Getting ridiculous now.

Thanks everyone.
I think while it is hard to draw any conclusions about "what people wanted", I think it is incredibly sad that this sort of considered, animated discussion is only happening after we have made the decision and the government has decided to go its own way no matter what. The quality of the debate in Parliament was great on Tuesday, there were some fantastic speeches. It felt like the campaigners before the referendum were just shouting past each other and now it is still happening, but there are so many people on both sides with legitimate worries and concerns. I hope it isn't going too far to say that a lot of this should have been addressed a long time ago. Some of it isn't even to do with the EU directly.
Thanks again for everyone who has been on here and taken the time to write. It has been really thought provoking.

surfer these threads aren't ruined by posters like small and I, they are ruined by the lack of substance in Leavers arguments.

You seem to want a 'happy place' thread where noone asks what you think of the realities Brexit has and will bring but you can just wave your flag around again.

You are ruining a lot of these threads - if you read the op she's not asking for remainers opinions. but you & smallfox can't resist sticking your noses in as per fucking usual.
Start your own threads & stay out of ours.

Same old same old Bear, surferjet is right.

The fact you even think there should be them and our threads is ridiculous surfer.

We are all in this shit together. It should all be up for discussion.

through you're right, it is sane old same old but only because people want to hear why Brexit is going to be so great and none can actually tell us.

Good lord surferjet

You sound about 10 in your last post

Anyone can go on any thread

Exactly the same thing happens the other way around and on many other topics

I would take the high ground surfer

You are quite right to be annoyed at the derailment

But there is not much you can do about it

Why have one post when three will do

Or four technically

I thought one of your criticisms surfer was that remainers exist in an echo chamber? Isn't this one of your own?

Derail the thread? Or is it: " I just want a place so I can confirm my bias."

But what if surfer and others do want their happy place? It's allowed isn't it? Having a robust discussion is one thing but the downright superiority stench that follows some posters all over this site is awful. You all pile in, backing each other up with your well researched 'facts' . You can only assume you are right....but no-one knows yet. Change creates churn. It is expected. Many things that are happening now are because of change, not because if any other fundamentals. Some of us are happy to wait and see. Like it or not guys.

Yup. echo chamber it is

"Some of us are happy to wait and see. Like it or not guys."

Vacuous.

TTFN

the downright superiority stench that follows some posters all over this site is awful.

Honks doesn't it?

backing each other up with your well researched 'facts'

What are 'facts'? Do you mean they are facts or they aren't facts?

Greenish Frackin You cry stench of superiority, I cry inverted snobbery and immaturity. Why is is suddenly, like nowhere else on Mumsnet, a recurring theme on these threads that challenging someone's opinion with evidence is unacceptable. There are plenty of places on Mumsnet where people hold strong opinions, education being one obvious area, sometimes it gets personal and unpleasant, as it would when precious DCs are concerned, there are the usual suspects who peddle their point of view persistently, but never have I seen anyone told to stop raising factual evidence or expert opinion because it was somehow being superior or bullying even. Yes you can have different opinions based on your interpretations of the evidence and different expert opinions but starting a thread on say Grammar Schools and saying I want only happy stories, don't quote the socio economic or academic results data or question the methodology, or outline the legal framework, or any of the other factors would I can assure you attract a great deal more of that "stench of superiority" ..... Mind you I have never seen such a scarcity of evidence, fact and concrete proposals bought to one side of the debate either but that isn't just Mumsnet is it?

smallfox
I don't want to exist in an echo chamber that's right, but that doesn't mean I want you crashing everysingle thread with your condescending tone & aggressive demands. If you want an argument, & quite honestly that's all you do want, then start a thread asking for one, but if a leaver starts a thread purely to discuss the referendum with fellow leavers, you should have the decency to stay off it - but I've seen enough of your posts to know that decency isn't in your vocabulary.
You swagger around this board like you're some sort of ambassador for all remainers, If I were a remainer I'd find you a total embarrassment.

Ron....challenging views is one thing but aggressive keyboard screeching is quite another. If smallfox changed her post to 'I hear what you are saying but I have quite the opposite view on such and such because of such and such, fine; but she doesn't, she just shuts down the conversation completely with her unpleasant turn of phrase, her insistence that 'there is no other way than mine because I have all the facts .And I put that in italics because everything is open to interpretation, even facts. There is no guide book or crystal ball, we are in uncharted waters. A little humility goes a long way.

I'm an embarrassment? You do make me laugh

Yawn...

I am a Remainer but I was looking forward to be able to listen to the reasons why Leavers have voted ike this.
NOT to tell them they were wrong and 'enter a debate'. The debate was to happen before the 23rd June. Not now.

But because if we want to move forward, we ALL need to understand each other and the reasons for the vote. Because they are so varied on both sides, I'm actually hoping that there IS a middle ground if we really look for it.

Because I don't want to live in a society that is fractured by this vote in a 'YOu are wrong and I am right' type of way. And to do that, the only way forward is to start listening to each other wo trying to tell the other they are wrong.

I fully agree with Fracking we are in unchartered waters. We need everyone to be able to move forward the best way possible.
And yes a bit of humility on both sides would help.

Scared but this uncertainty about the future is not entirely divorced from current reality. In Science you have a set number of factors which will predict an outcome given everything else is constant, in history the same is true except that the factors in play are more numerous and the constants less reliably predictable. However you can you can look at the factors that have most impact and they will be predictable with various degrees of risk, that is how businesses plan and devise their strategies accordingly, if not politicians. For instance we do know our current trading profile, we do know about the global trading environment and we do know our sources of competitive advantage, there is no debate about that, Theresa May outlined it them in her conferance speech. You cannnot ignore in any debate about our future the probabilities and risks that the people who are involved in those industries, Science, Technology, Higher Education and Financial Services are highlighting, indeed the adverse effects Science and Higher Education are already experiencing before we even leave. These issues cannot be dismissed with the claim there is total uncertainty / it will all be alright and so the priorities are FOM /Sovreignty or whatever other reason that led a leaver to cast their vote in June after a campaign run by Politicians and the press seeking to whip up anti EU /immigration sentiment, or a rerun of the election campaign based on risk aversion which delivered a Conservative government. It was typified by lack of focus on these sorts of realities, or indeed much reality at all.

Any dialogue about the future devoid of that debate about probabilities, which frankly is what we have seen from Surferjet, cannot take us on the best possible path, in fact is just as likely to lead us over a cliff.

Ron we only know what our trading profile is as a member of eu. we can discuss possibilities of what it might become but not, in my opinion, probabilities with any accuracy. And I think if Surfer had any idea of leading us over a cliff she would change her user name to the pied piper. Or roadrunner, even.