I really don't understand what you are all talking about!

[Corcory]

I keep reading how upset people are with the speeches at the conservative party conference and what TM has said and what she intends to do. I keep hearing about all the xenophobia and racism in the conservative party.
Someone on another thread talked about TM's ' citizen of the world' speech and how aghast they were. What exactly are you talking about?
I really feel too many people are reading headlines or taking parts of speeches out of context and spinning them way beyond the truth.
So many of the posters on here are EU citizens and are becoming ever more frightened by the rhetoric . I really don't think it is at all fair to hype this all up and frighten people. I absolutely abhor any racist taunts or comments that too many people have had thrown at them. That sort of attitude must be called out and stamped on straight away.
But winding things up with untruths isn't helping.
The last time I brought up the fact that 'quotes' from the party speeches were inaccurate I was told in no uncertain terms I was being patronizing!

jaws - I read your previous thread on Xenophobia and the government and replied to your posts.

I can see that you are very upset by what you think is happening. However I would say that the vast majority of British people do not have any interest in seeing people leave our country.
We are at the start of a very confusing negotiating situation and have just had probably the biggest ever referendum in our history. The government feel that the main issue the leave voters have is with the uncontrolled free movement of people from the other 27 countries and they now want to instigate controls on immigration as most other countries in the world have. The free movement situation is not the norm in the rest of the world and most countries value their borders and their own sovereignty. There is no reason why we shouldn't want to do the same and regain control as we had before hand.
That, I feel does not make us xenophobic or racist. However we must all be extra extra careful in case we mention the word foreign at all.

Corcory - I think you are trying to convince yourself.

The Tory government, (the one which made manifesto pledges to support the single market remember?), is trying to save its skin by pandering to the UKIP tendency. The government haven't made any attempt to find out what the Leave voters really wanted, but they will be quite happy to smash the country to appease UKIP. I use the word appease deliberately.

However I would say that the vast majority of British people do not have any interest in seeing people leave our country.

So? The vast majority of British people aren't in the Cabinet making the decisions.

Corcory - the way you describe it completely ommits that free movement is a reciprocal thing, and not just giving people from 27 other countries the right to move to the UK. And yes, going by everything you've posted you area xenophobe. At least own it.

Even UKIP MEPs think TM et al. went too far and that UKIPers would have been branded "racist" for saying the same! You voted to Leave the EU when it was clearly a battle fought on immigration, and xenophobia rose it's ugly head during the campaign. Now the consequences of that vote are fulfilling many people's worst fears and you, Leavers, say that we are hysterical and you cannot comprehend why, and when confronted by the evidence such as the Tory conference rhetoric you will find ways to deny the obvious. So, proposals for listing foreigners? It was misunderstood and wasn't meant like that. "Citizens of the world are citizens of nowhere"? again taken out of context, etc. No, it was meant like that, no, the context was clear and I heard it and understood it perfectly.

And xenophobia rose its ugly head... my English is good enough to spot wrong auto-corrections

www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/young-tories-are-worried-about-theresa-may-is?utm_term=.qq0V8a85k#.lmxAX3XRJ
It looks like many young Tories do understand what we're talking about, maybe it's clearer coming from them.

Widow - 'going by everything you have posted you are area xenophobe' - what on earth does that mean? Obviously you really haven't read everything I have posted or you would know that I am very keen on immigration and am only against freedom of movement from the EU in that I think the immigration rules should be the same no matter where in the world you come from.
Obviously jaws you 'want' to read things as you do and 'want' to believe that the British government are xenophobes and racist which as far as I'm concerned just isn't true.

But there just seems to be no way round speaking about the subject of immigration without being accused of xenophobia or racism. So they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.

Obviously jaws you 'want' to read things as you do and 'want' to believe that the British government are xenophobes and racist which as far as I'm concerned just isn't true.

Whether that is true or not, they certainly appear to be pandering to the UKIP tendency. I remember the election literature of 2015 - they were scared stiff of losing votes to UKIP.

So Jaws I have to read what the young Tories think and mend my ways! Having read them I can see that they are remain voters and haven't a clue what the leave voters actually think. It's not all just about Tory policy and appeasing one or another political wing of the party. This is a cross party issue.

The Young Tories seemed to be annoyed because May was stealing some of Miliband's policies. Don't worry, Young Tories, that was just empty rhetoric.

Corcory, what do you make of the fact that even Nicky Morgan described some of the ideas in Amber Rudd's speech as "repugnant"? Is she being hysterical too?

jaws, it was me who used the term hysterical, and I am a Remainer, as state in my post.

You have taken what I said, attributed it to the OP, and twisted it to fit your argument.

Illustrates one of the problems - people generalise, people gossip, people use a personal anecdote to build a wider argument, and before you know it, the Tory party conference is the start of something as sinister ascge Nazis. These ideas grow legs and people stop thinking clearly.

Your OP reads like one of those statements from men who mansplain women's experience away with a #NotAllMen hashtag.

You personally are not a racist or a xenophobe so you can't understand how anyone could possibly feel worried about racism or xenophobia.

The 'citizens of the world' bit was harkening back to the old 'cosmopolitan elite' slur against Jews. It is an anti-Semitic slur because it strongly implies that Jews are not primarily citizens of the country they live in, and are therefore not loyal to the country they live in, nor do they have the best interests of their fellow citizens at heart. They are only in it for their own interests, and their own interests do not coincide with the interests of The People. 'Citizens of the world' are takers. They are not 'Us'. They have no loyalty to 'Us'. They are different from 'Us'. This is fascism.

'...too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites' (Theresa May)
First - are there 'international elites'?
Second - why would someone set up 'international elites', whoever they may be, as The Enemy?

Third - a question for you, Corcory - who are the International Elites?

Why then, if May, is concerned about (wealthy) international elites, does she not start with her own Cabinet? One Boris Johnson springs to mind as a good person to start with.

I feel the opposite. I think the Tories say one thing and actually think another. The last election was won because they said they were supporting working people, then immediately tried to shaft them. They were after the workers' vote. TM is of the same ilk. She is saying she is pro-worker, saying she wants to go after tax evaders. But in reality her version of 'equal opp' for all is based on a rigid class structure where the aspirations of working people are stunted whilst better off people are able to buy a better education thus have more opportunity. That's not equality. Also, the individualist ideaology has a dark underbelly where those that don't 'succeed' only have themselves to blame (not social inequality) which to me is a rather victorian ideaology. So she says one thing but yet she is tory at heart and that means she wants to maintain the class structure which keeps a large portion of the country working for shit wages whilst others are able to network themselves into high wages.

Mathanxiety, I feel you are being deliberately confusing. Are you saying TM reference to international elites was antisemitic?

Her use of the term international elites was not a reference to the old term cosmopolitan elites, it was a reference to today's global economics.

itisok2flipflop.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/unpacking-the-term-cosmopolitan-intellectual-elite-in-light-of-brexit/

The Conservatives have always supported things like the NHS and (in their day) grammar schools and rights for the working class to buy their own home etc. It is not fair to say they are the party who want to keep the rich rich and the less well off in low wages. Obviously Labour supporters might say that but it's not true.

Whoever takes the middle ground tends to win elections in the UK as we are not a radical people. Most of us just want to trug along reasonably well day to day with no hassle or trouble.

There are very few people who earn high wages in the UK which is why when we have economic problems we have to end up taxing those in the middle as most people are in the middle.

Well - Of course math wasn't saying that TM was being antisemitic. Read her post again.

I don't understand what mathanxiety is saying, which is why I posted. But all these references to fascism etc are dangerous. They are insidious and before we know it, people are believing it.

I saw this on Facebook today. This sort of stuff is dangerous

But all these references to fascism etc are dangerous. They are insidious and before we know it, people are believing it.
I saw this on Facebook today. This sort of stuff is dangerous

Perhaps we should ban it.

"it's an old antisemitic slur", yes, and that's been picked up by international commentators as such. Also, the "international and cosmopolitan elites" has been taken out from the UKIP style of politics, what is never explained is who they are, but again, it brings back to mind the "judeo-masonic elite conspiracy in search of world domination" that was part of 1930s discourse. We all know how that ended.
I did not accuse the OP of using the term"hysterical" personally, it's a term that's being branded about generally.

OP, I guess you won't be adding your voice to the thread "If this isn't what you voted for..." because you are certain that there is no "this"?

I'm finding that thread interesting though, because thus far all the Leavers who have bothered to post on it are doing a pretty good impression of sneering, name-calling, dismissing and all those other things which we have been told are heinous crimes committed only by Remainers against Leavers.