If this isn't what you voted for stand up and be counted!

[WidowWadman]

So all those Brexiteers and Lexiters who didn't vote on the basis of immigration controls, where are you? Will there be marches against May's interpretation of your vote?

You know, I actually believe that plenty of people didn't realise what their vote was going to unleash despite being warned frequently and emphatically. It's not too late to speak out and stand up against it. If you didn't mean it, don't hide behind that you haven't meant it. Do something about it.

Pro-tip: declaring xenophobic things to be not xenophobic, actually is not speaking out against it or distancing yourself from it. Declaring hurt at being lumped in with the xenophobes without outright condemnation of their rhetoric doesn't count as standing up to it. Much the opposite.

Maybe they're sick of you aggressively demanding they explain themselves....over & over & over again.

I would just like to see leave voters explain themselves in the way that remain voters on these threads seem able to.

All I've seen from leavers, however, is repeated buzz-phrases like 'sovereignty' and 'taking back control', along with anecdote and straight-up erroneous comments.

It is not aggressive to ask for elucidation and expansion, or to question factually inaccurate statements.

But to my mind, an 'advisory' referendum trumps (democratically at least) Parliament.

Why and how? Bearing in mind that the UK is a parliamentary democracy.

Having an immigration policy which only allows those with the skills we need to improve this country is, in my opinion, how we help fix things

Don't get me wrong, Hobbybaker, I think this is a perfectly reasonable argument in the abstract - it's is basically the way it works in Australia, for example.

BUT because freedom of movement we can't have this and the benefits of Europe. And the level of the pound shows us what the world thinks of the UK outside Europe. Investment will dry up. Our biggest (almost our only) export - financial services - could well be damaged beyond repair. I think you have to look at the whole picture and when I do that, I think Europe is the best compromise for the UK. Perfect? No. But I think we will all come to realise that we were a lot better off in (and able to influence it) than we will be outside.

But to my mind, an 'advisory' referendum trumps (democratically at least) Parliament.

As I said earlier, I'd be very, very wary of that sort of democracy.....

Malice could you explain to me why you seem convinced (like a lot if others bye) that the MPs would do their upmost to stop the uk leaving the eyes of it was left to them?
I mean unless I'm mistaken, TM was a Remainer but she seems quite good at defending the cause of Brexit.
There are other MO who are in the same situation. Voted Temain but now are supporting Brexit.
So why do you think all the other MPs wouldn't?

Hollybaker, it is mathematically almost impossible for new trade deals to make up for slamming the doors on our nearest neighbours, and that is before issues such as time differences and transport costs are taken tinto account.

However, I find it slightly comforting (if illogical) that many Leavers seemed to think there was no economic cost. One would have to be pretty xenophobic to want the economic pain that hard Brexit will cause in terms of reduced jobs, tax revenues, public services, reduced pay due to inflation simply because people don't like hearing foreign accents. honestly.

Do people really think that financial services are all the UK has? Jeez.

And well done to Natalia for shoehorning Hitler in and the nice use of incorrect manfearing statistics in, whilst trying to support Tyranny of Majority - the irony of which will become apparent when you look at the UK % male:female [slow hand clap emoji]

But to my mind, an 'advisory' referendum trumps (democratically at least) Parliament Very, very dangerous and a traditional method used by tyrants and dictators while maintaining a facade of democratic respectability.

It's a good thing then that your mind doesn't trump democracy then.

To the person that said we'd get more lucrative deals? I really don't understand this thinking at all. We as a country have less to offer others without full eu access and others have an upper hand in negotiations because of this.

The free trade dream of the UK outside of the EU will benefit one small part of the population to he detriment of the other.

And before you start it isn't the same with EU membership. Domestic government decisions have had far more impact on the areas that are left behind than the EU, in fact the EU has made sure that these areas get funding that they never would have done from domestic government

OurBlanche a perfectly reasonable counter argument to all the entirely simplistic claims that "it's democracy"....

Blanche.. Hitler used referendums to show his popularity and to demonstrate the will of he majority for his policies. It's what dictators do rather than have themy debated and scrutinised by parliaments. This wasn't shoe Horning.

To take the image of the house sale.
We have all agreed to sell the house.
Now we need to handle how we are doing the sale.
If buyers are asking us to leave lol the furniture, do we accept or are taking everything with us or maybe leaving the fixtures in like lamp shades etc?
What about the price? What is the minimum price we accept to sell for,
Etc etc

I agree I would like to know what is the repartition in the votes between getting our sowereignty back, those who are against immigration and those who voted fur a change and just to be heard from 'the South'.

This should be discussed and who is better placed to do so that elected MPs?

I remember someone once saying on the Brian Hayes show on R2 shows how long ago it was that "our democracy was the rule of the majority with the consent of the minority"

Actually in recent years, given voter turnout, I'd reverse that and say "the rule of the minority with the consent of the majority"

Well, this "minority" is saying "Not in our name" and not giving consent.

We won't be able to afford to go anywhere else (even if we manage to get the visas to go!). Keep out the foreigners? We will be desperate for the tourist hordes attracted by the cheap pound. It'll be the only industry left.....

I agree with this. There is a naïve assumption going on that we will somehow always be relatively prosperous in the UK. It has not always been the case.

"Freedom of movement" is reciprocal. Uncomfortably for some, if we carry on down this trajectory, it is not far fetched to imagine British workers in 40 years time wishing they had the freedom to do farm work in, say, Poland, or British women wishing they could travel overseas to be residential domestic migrant workers, doing washing, ironing, childcare etc. This is not uncommon in countries with very weak currencies relative to their neighbours.

Oh, I know that, smallfox! But it is one of those 'things' that gets thrown out at Leavers, to show them, incontravertably, just how bad they are. It seems to be intended as a moral full stop! I object to it! It is lazy debating, at best!

And Natalia, are you saying that using incorrect statistics and trying to say "Man Gets Vote Women Get Fucked" is a good argument for anything? You mention Tyranny by Majority in there... well the UK still has more women than men... undermining your fragile argument a little!

....and, don't forget, in our Parliamentary system, we are given the chance every five years to vote again. You voted for a Labour MP and now regret your vote? You can vote Conservative next time....or vice versa. This is a once only decision.

This is a once only decision. Ponders how many times the UK has voted on In/Out of Europe, so far!

And yes, I do know that we can't get back on in a whim, the French will use their veto for a third time... but plus ca change and all that!

It isn't just the freedom of movement that is reciprocal, capital, goods and services.

In eastern Europe for example lots of firms from the UK are making big profits and are able to transfer them back to the UK untaxed in the country they were generated in, contributing to tax take here. That freedom will go too!

OurBlanche You will note the conditional I used in my male/female analogy - was meant purely as an example. If the statistical inaccuracy is bothersome, I will change it. If all the people who live in England vote that all the people who love in Scotland are to become bonded slaves and are no longer allowed to vote, is that democracy? (There are more of them!). The point, however, is the same - and prettybird's point about consent is valid here as well.

"Freedom of movement" is reciprocal. Uncomfortably for some, if we carry on down this trajectory, it is not far fetched to imagine British workers in 40 years time wishing they had the freedom to do farm work in, say, Poland, or British women wishing they could travel overseas to be residential domestic migrant workers, doing washing, ironing, childcare etc. This is not uncommon in countries with very weak currencies relative to their neighbours.

Totally agree with this, figment. Spot on.

are you saying that using incorrect statistics and trying to say "Man Gets Vote Women Get Fucked"

Perhaps it is because English is not my first language, or my inarguable bias as one of those voters, but I took Natalia's post to be a hypothetical: the sentence in question started with "if" and to me it was pretty obviously not meant to be a real example because it went on to talk about "men voting unanimously" - so you'd be as well to berate her for suggesting all men vote the same as for getting the percentage of the sexes the wrong way round.

Yes, hypothetical, adding in an extra layer of obfuscation, misdirection, in order to make a point that, even on re-reading, got lost! Bonded slaves give me a break! Real world calling, we need actions not anonymous puffery!

There are so many facts and figures out there. So much stuff that actually needs to be done.

So far there are 2 of us who are standing up politically and working to make real changes: 1 Remainer and 1 Leaver... same aims, different pathways!

Elements Thank you for supporting my "anonymous puffery" (and yes, your interpretation was exactly what I meant and more eloquently expressed!). Of course, we don't want debate. We want action. We want democracy. We can't actually define, or even agree on, what that is or what the consequences of it may be. (Come to think of it, this is rather like Brexit itself.....). I'm a supporter of a little more thought, personally.....