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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Xenophobia: Brexit official discourse

525 replies

jaws5 · 04/10/2016 21:23

Hearing one minister after another at the Tory conference today has made me feel ill: So foreign doctors are welcome UNTIL more British doctors have been trained in a hurry, foreigners will be treated as second class citizens when applying for a job, and EU nationals are one of the "main cards" in Brexit negotiations. I cannot imagine any other country in the world where the official discourse of the governing party would include these statements without it being condemned as xenophobic. Shame on them.

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Coatgate · 07/10/2016 20:23

You are all hilarious.

😄

smallfox2002 · 07/10/2016 20:26

The metropolitan elite? Who write the editorials, shape the agenda, 1 headline in every 5 for 6 months about immigration?

What could possibly be the agenda?

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 10:38

No problem WT. I may well be wrong, but it seems to make sense to me.

I wrote this on another thread this morning as part of another post in reference to a blog by Tory Rory Stewart MP but perhaps it has a better a place on this thread.

But the expert may be focusing only on what can be quantified – the cost of a hospital; the measured impact of grazing; the carbon-savings; or the jobs created. They may ignore other types of values which matter to a community: a deep historical attachment to a community health-care centre; nostalgia for a small family sheep farm; the meaning of a landscape; or the beauty of a market-town. In which case an MP’s task is to challenge the experts’ views; to lead a march in favour of the cottage hospital, support the small farmer, or demonstrate against the wind turbine and the new development. This will bewilder the experts, who can always justify their views on the basis of thousands of scholarly papers. They will feel that the political opposition is purely ‘subjective’, ‘populist’ or ‘sentimental’. And certainly not to be preferred to ‘real’ medical benefits, ‘real’ environmental benefits, ‘real’ jobs and economic growth. And they will suspect the MP is simply ignorant, or dishonest, or afraid of voters, or incapable of showing leadership and ‘doing the right thing’. (I can imagine my father at this point adding ‘hear, hear’).

But the reason I find being an MP satisfying is that public opinion can have its own wisdom, its own rights, and an uncanny reliability over time. And this is because it captures what we value most in human attachments, in traditions, or in a sense of beauty, landscape, and nationhood. Such views reflect our past, features of our soil, shards of national myths, and our own experiences at home and abroad – a mixture muddled in all of us, and fiercely disputed by people with different tastes, beliefs, and from different generations. Being difficult to measure, such things are too often overlooked (which is in part why the experts still struggle to come to terms with the Brexit vote) but they are no less important for being unquantifiable.

I both agree and disagree.

There is definitely SOMETHING in the Brexit vote. But what has been focused on is flawed. And in listening to voices of the Brexit vote, the voice of the 48% has been ignored

We have become trapped between the purely rational thinking "target driven policy" in the NHS and in schools and the inhuman thinking of warmongering Blair which has forgotten humanity and the purely black and white ideological thinking of the Far Right where Muslims = Terrorists Immigrants = Benefit Scroungers in terms of leadership.

It has also become an either / or debate.

The politics are rather more complex than that though. You need both the humanity and reasoned thought. I think many educated people fall foul of that problem (myself included) as taking that approach is judged as trying to make it too difficult for 'normal people' to understand when there is a desire to see things in simple terms. The trouble is that these are complex issues that CAN NOT be simplified no matter how much you want to.

In addition to what I said on the other thread, I should also add that I think all educated people are sometimes wrongly regarded as being completely about being about this over rationality. Its simply not true.

Good decisions for society (as opposed to science) come from taking both the more human elements of ideology as well as from evidence. If you want a good example, then balancing mental health as part of physical health is a good one. (I am a passionate supporter of this in childbirth and post a lot about it on MN with regard to ELCS v VB). Its a balancing act. We need to look more at social economics as well as monetary economics as a society. Austerity really is the prime example of that - but you don't replace that with an ideology either. The solution is a much more complex mix, which unfortunately, at times isn't going to be accessible to people without a certain type/level of education as a result.

Its not that people are too stupid to understand it, its just that they have not been given the training to understand it - the difference is important and comes down to opportunity and how you are taught to value education by the part of society you live in.

The challenge is to expand this understanding amongst the population without over simplifying the problem in the first place. I believe that the referendum was guilty of failing in this challenge on a catastrophic scale. Both sides of the debate, failed because they choose either to present the reasoned side or the ideological side pretty much exclusively. And this is now continuing and the government is reinforcing the idea that Brexit will be an ideological solutions on many levels - once again at the expense of humanity.

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 10:46

"The metropolitan elite? Who write the editorials, shape the agenda, 1 headline in every 5 for 6 months about immigration?'

Mais bien sur.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 11:00

(Also worth pointing out that lots of business people lack a formal education - so perhaps could be called 'thick' for not having so many GSCEs / O Levels. They simply have had a different kind of education which is no better / worse than a formal one. Education is not just about getting grades at school. 'Thinking critically' is learned but you can learn it different ways and from different sources. EVERYONE should be encouraged to in someway for their own self interest and its part of every decision you make)

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 11:06

're: metropolitan elite Theresa May cleverly picked up on the Kippers' disdain for anything multicultural. I remember similar slurs before the referendum against Londoners as "out of touch" privileged, million-pound house owners. All of us who live London are privileged apparently and don't understand the common people. Also being educated and aspiring to our children moving freely and studying in Europe is a crime and shows we're selfish.

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jaws5 · 08/10/2016 11:08

Red is the attitude, being open to new ideas is more important than 10 A*GCSEs

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Mistigri · 08/10/2016 11:41

There are different sorts of business people, and it's perfectly possible to be successful in business without being "open to new ideas" or having much in the way of critical thinking skills. In fact, many successful business people are successful mainly because they come from the right background (eg inherit a business or capital from their parents) and have a minimum amount of energy and drive.

Anyway, on the subject of Brexit and xenophobia and other "unintended" consequences, this is an interesting read

paulbernal.wordpress.com/2016/10/08/brexit-and-consequences/

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 12:51

Red is the attitude, being open to new ideas is more important than 10 A*GCSEs

Weeeellllll......

.....deep breathe....
.... yes, but....

The response of the liberal groups of the EU to the failings of the EU in not understanding the fear of closer ties within the EU has been to say 'We need closer ties within the EU'.

So I'm wary about what I say here. The Leave vote was often characterised by seeing new ideas as a threat to their identity / history / culture.

I think it comes down to how you do it, rather than what you do. The problem is the fear rather than the new idea. May is pandering to the fear, rather than addressing underlying reasons behind the fear. She is reinforcing the fear. (Unless she is going for the bizarre type of technique whereby someone with anarchophobia is forced to stick their hand in a bag of spiders to overcome the fear to make them realise that spiders aren't all that bad after all. Eg: She is flirting with fascism/economic problems because the public thought they would solve their problems as they are scared of the EU but come out realising that actually the EU isn't so bad afterall. Which would be utterly doomed to fail).

I think there needs to be a realisation by some quarters that under privileged groups ARE being written off / never given the chance because of their own prejudices being rather negative. You have to have a degree to fart these days. That's not right. That is a product of the promotion of 50% of people going to university and no other forms of education being available. We've gone out about culture in terms of which country people are from but I do think there is a working class / middle class culture which can be just as alien to each other.

Its a consequence of close mindedness due to various groups closing themselves in someway. This is a mutual thing though. Fuelled by lots of different forces.

Trying to apportion blame, does nothing to solve it.

There has to be a change in mindset where we recognise the value of working class people and working class culture. We recognise the value of various types of education as all being essential to the running of the country. Where we recognise that the health care assistant who wipes your backside in your old age is as important as the doctor that diagnoses your condition.

Ask the question, why don't unskilled British people want to become a health care assistant, and instead someone from Poland does it instead.

Is it simply because the Brit is lazy? Or is it also because the pay is so bad and the working conditions don't value them and the public attitude to them can be so appalling? I said before that the Arab Spring was motived by a quest for respect and dignity and not democracy. The idea of 'status' within British society is an important one to consider as it is central to the idea of identity too.

At the same time we have to ask the question about why education is a dirty word to others. Why do kids say to each other 'don't be a swat' and bully the clever kid for not conforming. Why does this threaten working class culture so much. Why is being a success viewed as a betrayal and perhaps more importantly something of a loss of identity? It is not being jealous. Its something more than that. Something that people place value on.

And by the same token - out of fear, either genuine or perceived - minority groups do isolate themselves in various ways, finding strength in their common heritage/religion/language.

In a sense I think it is about being more open minded about things, but I think its possibly more about placing such high value on things other than those have driven thinking in the past - such as university education and money - and not taking other things and people for granted. It relates to status within society and there being a hierarchy.

IMO, 'Schrödinger's Immigrant' can be explained by this. The immigrant who steals your job whilst simultaneously taking benefits from your country. Its about status.

The immigrant who you perceive to take your status in the eyes of society whilst you try and assert your status as not being at the bottom of the pile by focusing on a particular negative stereotype(s).

Also as a side note to this, if you are not British born, and grown up in that mindset, I think its incredibly difficult to understand and appreciate the very idea of British classes and why its so fucked in the head as a concept. As liberal minded we proclaim ourselves to be as a society, and we look to the outside world, we are not as into equality quite as we'd like to admit when it comes down to it.

As I say its a complex task, one that needs to be tackled from all sides. It does require education to be used and encouraged. It does require open mindedness. But that's not a one way street either.

Immigrants are good for our society, but so are working class people and we should value them too, is probably the simplest terms you can put it down to.

None of this British jobs for British people nonsense which actually starts to pit the two against either other (and you could argue here - protects the status of the white British middle / upper class establishment in someway - and allows them to consolidate power. The term divide and conquer has been thrown about a bit for a reason.)

I hope this post does proper justice to the subject. Its difficult to explain without sounding like a twat or upsetting someone somehow.

Peregrina · 08/10/2016 13:29

Why do kids say to each other 'don't be a swat' and bully the clever kid for not conforming. Why does this threaten working class culture so much.

Is this in part because Theresa May's much loved Grammar schools, only gave a leg up to relatively few working class people, so there is an element of sour grapes? So many were shut out of opportunities that they said they didn't want them anyway? And indeed the whole idea of how wonderful grammar schools were was so that the lucky few working class people could be socially mobile and escape the working class.

Yet it wasn't always so. What about the Mechanics Institutes of the 19th Century, and other organisations, where it was absolutely fine for a manual worker to be well read?

Have to go out now, so can't continue.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 13:36

Hahaha! Hollow laugh.

So the 'bargaining chip' that was gone about, has been proved to be nonsense by the Home Office themselves after they discover 5 out of 6 EU citizens could not legally deported and that therefore trying to weed out the other 1 in 6 would a bureaucratic expensive nightmare.

No one at all, has pointed this out previously of course (pppffttt).

It was always the case. I've talked to people who have been scared and shown them all the leal reasons why to reassure them.

Its funny how 'sources' are now suddenly coming out of the woodwork to point this out. There are some unhappy bunnies in Whitehall.

What remains to be seen is if they will have equal rights to British citizens or not (would require a change in the law) or whether they will face more discrimination due to the government pouring petrol on the flames of xenophobia.

The mere fact that their were senior government figures (Fox and May amongst others) still saying even this week that they would be bargaining chips shows how deluded they are and how its all about spin/politics domestically rather than giving a fig about negotiations abroad.

Not news. Just spin and jostling for position.

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 13:47

Am I the only one who would love to meet up with all the interesting & smart 'cosmopolitan' posters on these post Brexit thread. So many people here have similar situations with one british / one EU partner or both EU partners who have been settled here for many years with bi/tri lingual kids....or British families who have lived abroad... It sounds like a fab, smart and diverse bunch of people.....Thanks

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 19:29

greenandwhite yes, it would be very interesting! Smile so many wonderful people!
I saw that Telegraph article on "EU migrants" and then BBC's report "British expats sue EU's Juncker over talks". Political semantics at work here. We came here as full EU citizens and we're now "migrants". The Brits are always "expats".

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Corcory · 08/10/2016 19:56

Red - I really equate with what Rory Stuart was saying there. I really like Rory Stuart. He has made some very interesting programs in the past and has had a very interesting career in the army prior to becoming an MP.
This is why so many leavers can't really explain why they voted the way they did. Rory Stuart said it all.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 21:36

Corcory, as I say I both agree and disagree with the Stewart blog. I find it frustrating more than anything. In the end given Stewart's background I find myself disappointed.

I also thinks he does a massive disservice to a lot of Remain voters who are thoroughly fed up of jobsworthy by the book approaches. The question was about the EU. It was not about how you feel this country is run and how we make decisions in this country. You know local government and national government. If you asked me a question about how that was managed, I'd give you a good mouthful. The fact that he even makes this distinction in what he says is rather telling. Leading the march for the cottage hospital? Yes that's a decision made in Brussels isn't it?

And Green, yes some great and interesting people here. However I don't appear to fit your definition :(

GreenandWhite · 09/10/2016 08:23

"And Green, yes some great and interesting people here. However I don't appear to fit your definition" Shock Thanks . I should have said all the interesting posters who are sharing interesting insights and challenge the simplistic rhetorics that are being thrown around. Thanks

GreenandWhite · 09/10/2016 08:26

" saw that Telegraph article on "EU migrants" and then BBC's report "British expats sue EU's Juncker over talks". Political semantics at work here. We came here as full EU citizens and we're now "migrants". The Brits are always "expats"."

Oh yes!!

GreenandWhite · 09/10/2016 08:30

I posted this link on another thread but wonder if it fits here too. The discourse of xenophobia is also steering up hatred among migrants from different background.

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/f0537bc5-43c1-40cc-804d-39df0cff6d75 "The Muslims who voted for Brexit: what do they think now?"

Some British Muslims voted for Brexit and a range of reasons have been mentioned. One topic recurred and that was a discomfort with Eastern European immigrants. I find this really interesting. Is it a catholic v Muslim issue or is it about new migrants arriving and competing with existing migrants for jobs.

also worth a read
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/racism-migrants-in-the-uk-fox/

ScaredFuture99 · 09/10/2016 17:05

I'm not so sure its as easy as '80% of EU citizens can stay in the UK'. At the moment, to get the (un)fampus Perament residency card, you have to have worked for 5 years in the UK (or been a student/have own source of revenue).
I know quite a lot of EU 'expats' who haven't been working 5 years bevause they came with a partner and for various reasons haven't worked.
Eg even though I have been in the UK for much more than 5 years, I have a lot of blanks (incl retraining for 3 yearsm, being made redundant, taking a break due to young dcs etc...). A couple of years ago, I would have struggled to fill the criteria.

What IS happening though is that so many people have filled a request for the Premanent Resident card that the government has more than 110 years worth of work ion front of them. That was on August too so is likely to be kuch higher up now. They won't be able to cope with that level of demand and I susoect they will need to get an 'easier' system in place. maybe thats where the numbers are coming from?

ScaredFuture99 · 09/10/2016 17:07

Worth a read too An article in Guardian about Britain after Brexit

Corcory · 09/10/2016 17:34

But Red if you represent a rural constituency with a very clear identity I can see exactly what Rory Stewart is talking about. He is talking about places wanting a say in what happens in their area and feeling that they are being pushed into accepting things that are not for the best for them and the culture and identity of their area. I think it depends where you are from.

smallfox2002 · 09/10/2016 18:19

Funny that the Tories have just over ruled a rural community over fracking then isn't it.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 18:44

You mean like stopping fracking Corcory....

Prime example of saying one thing, then doing exactly the opposite in the same week.

Peregrina · 09/10/2016 19:03

This was the nasty EU telling the Government to overrule Lancs CC, was it? No, goes without saying, it was the Westminster Govt, who is quite out of touch with what happens in the North.