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Brexit

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Xenophobia: Brexit official discourse

525 replies

jaws5 · 04/10/2016 21:23

Hearing one minister after another at the Tory conference today has made me feel ill: So foreign doctors are welcome UNTIL more British doctors have been trained in a hurry, foreigners will be treated as second class citizens when applying for a job, and EU nationals are one of the "main cards" in Brexit negotiations. I cannot imagine any other country in the world where the official discourse of the governing party would include these statements without it being condemned as xenophobic. Shame on them.

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RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 11:57

Yes the political compass explains it more or less.

You can put a line between group B and D. Above voted Leave (exception A). Below voted Remain (exception an additional group G - the Lexiters who occupy ground very close to the left of group C. I personally think which its debatable as to which Corbyn belongs and was part of his problem. Group C b). It splits Labour right down the middle perfectly.
Group D were the problem. They would never vote Tory as Group A who lead the Remain campaign are almost indisguishable from that. The group that are closest to them are actually UKIP – meaning that Lib Dem or Corbyn appeals to them were unlikely to appeal to them most.

More generally the sphere of ideology that Leave appealed to was more narrow than the Remain one. They largely didn’t bother with the odd Lexiters. It would have diluted the message and that group is relatively small. Remain had to target a much more diverse group of people on many different agendas.

Group A are the odd ones – a group that are driven by making pragmatic decisions on a daily basis as part of business. Otherwise above the line comes down to ideology above rational reasoned decision making based on evidence.

It also highlights Labour’s current problems. Its base is so wide it can never have a single unifying manifesto. A leader close to position D – but below the line (in the remain camp) POSSIBLY could lead the party to success. Corbyn is currently too isolated as a leader – he can not appeal to the whole party nor will he attract the attention of most of the public. It would take a revolution of bigger proportions for him to get power than the one we’ve just had as it requires such a shift in political thinking. That said group C is also characterised by the young and highly educated (I’m actually closer to C than B). Groups D, E and F are aging. So the shift could happen – in about 20 to 30 years. Though the recent political shift makes that more difficult now too due to who is going to shape the future landscape.

The Conservatives occupy a much smaller base so are more unified with their split mainly on the issue of Europe and the idea of being pragmatic about business. Watch that one develop… It could decide whether pragmatism and evidence based decision making wins out or not.
It also explains the shift from reasoned decision making to one ideologically driven – based on that imaginary line.

The political battle ground is around Group D now. UKIP want it from Labour. The Conservatives are also shifting as they want to prevent UKIP from treading on their toes or becoming too powerful. In doing so they risk alienating groups A and B. This ‘new centre ground’ is that battle area. It used to be over ground much closer to group B. Labour don't seem to have got wise enough to this yet.

As the Conservatives move towards UKIP and become more authoritarian, they risk the party though. If you thought the divide over Europe was bad before, what happens if the party line moves far from that sweet A/F spot? The Conservatives in group B get completely abandoned (many of the MPs are in this too). Labour and the Lib Dems could clean that up. The Lib Dems being better placed as Labour are too preoccupied with Group D. May is also taking the gamble that group A – the key business group – will stick with her because they are still closer politically to the Conservatives than anyone else.

That remains to be seen. It is funny how May is trying to villanise liberals so much right now. After the last election the Liberal Democrats were all but wiped out. Why? Perhaps this is because they might be a threat if she shifts too much or goes too hard on Brexit or too ideological. The Liberal Democrats share an interest in the EU/Single market AND evidence based decision making with Group A. And the group that swung it for the Conservatives at the last election were group B. The thorn in the side for the Lib Dems is that Labour are also in group B and this splits the vote of group B. At present there is no shift going on in polling, but the potential is definitely there in my opinion.

Strange times. Worrying times.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 12:45

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 34s
I know this sound laughably naive, but at some point pro-immigration lefties and liberal free market types will also need to work together.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
At some point Remainers and liberal Brexiters are going to need to stop fighting each other and realise they now share the same goals.

Well isn't this just the truth.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 12:58

"At some point Remainers and liberal Brexiters are going to need to stop fighting each other and realise they now share the same goals."
That is exactly what I was thinking today.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 12:59

Well done Roland Rudd. I can just imagine the discussion at the Rudd family dinner table.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 13:14

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/eu-citizenship-stripped-brexit-theresa-may interesting article about EU citizenship.

The EU citizen was created in 1993. It is a person who, across the union, cannot be discriminated against on the basis of nationality; can move and reside freely; can vote for and stand as a candidate in European parliament and municipal elections; and is entitled to consular protection outside the EU by European diplomats. More than that, citizenship established a identity, separate from nationality, shared between individuals in the union. A common bond of the kind that Theresa May otherwise admires. In the 23 years since, cultural, political, academic and social exchange has become the norm. What might have initially seemed like a paper exercise has become durable and meaningful to millions. Eurosceptics hate it, no doubt. That doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

Figmentofmyimagination · 07/10/2016 14:19

Yet another lurch into the gutter -

"Leading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/lse-brexit-non-uk-experts-foreign-academics

lifeistooshort · 07/10/2016 14:40

figment thanks but very shocking.

First the EU citizens are the bad guys
Now it is "experts" from EU countries/foreign born.
Next it will be anyone who does any thinking at all.
There is a reason why totalitarian regimes always starts with the intellectuals.

What shocks me the most is the pace at which all this is happening and at which every day things seems to be spiraling a little bit more out of control and a bit closer to the abyss and most people are oblivious.

I remember not so long ago a lot of English people I know mocking France as narrow minded because Marine Le Pen has support there and going on and on about how this would never happen in England. At least Marine is not in power in France yet (and hopefully never will) but England now has her very own Marine whom has not even been elected.

jaws5 · 07/10/2016 15:13

How low are they prepared to sink? There HAS to be civilised people in the Tory party who feel this needs to stop before it's too late!

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ScaredFuture99 · 07/10/2016 15:25

Nope because so far no one dares saying that intellectuals DO have a role to play and ARE important parts of the society.
That's what we have been brained washed with for a long time now. NOit just since Brexit campaign

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 16:12

Figmentofmyimagination Burning books comes to mind.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 16:13

They have fucking lost their minds.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 16:14

And.... the best of luck to them finding home grown 'talent' Hmm laughable.

Coatgate · 07/10/2016 16:36

Yeah, cos the British are all fick.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 16:41

No Coat but there is a reason why there are so many academic experts here who are foreign born. If there were Brits who were up to the task, they would have been given those jobs.

TheElementsSong · 07/10/2016 16:44

Yeah, cos the British are all fick.

Or maybe because the sorts of people they are looking for to fill these sorts of roles are likely to be the despised elite experts who find these developments abhorrent.

Mrskeats · 07/10/2016 16:51

Yeah, cos the British are all fick.

Unfortunately this is often true. Have a google for literacy levels in Britain compared to other European countries. It's somehow uncool to be seen as clever or an intellectual here when it's revered in other countries.
Apparently we have had enough of experts so being thick is the way to go.

Figmentofmyimagination · 07/10/2016 17:50

This issue is not about the relative academic ability of British nationals.

"Foreign born" experts are not sought after because there are insufficient "British-born" experts (!) but because an open and tolerant government in a liberal 21st C democracy shouldn't give two hoots what your nationality is, and should value high level expertise and insight from as wide a pool as possible whatever it says on your passport.

Some of the most insightful economic and political voices are (shock) not British nationals (can't quite believe we are having this discussion!) eg Joe stiglitz, Paul krugman, our own governor of the Bank of England (for how much longer though - eek - can he be trusted...)

But to get silly, the policy is completely hair brained even if you were comfortable with its inherent fascism eg hitler was Austrian, Stalin was Georgian etc and I'm pretty sure our famous cambridge spy ring - burgess etc - were pretty solidly 'English'. It's all a bit surreal.

Mistigri · 07/10/2016 18:13

If you're seeking to recruit people to work on very complex, cross border issues where the pool of specialists is small, it's plainly lunacy to restrict your pool even further.

It's not a question of ability, but of specialisation. I work in a very specialised field - the number of people with a similar skill and knowledge set in the UK is probably in single figures. That doesn't mean I'm more intelligent than other people working in different areas of specialisation, just that I have a lot of experience in a rather esoteric field.

TheForeignOffice · 07/10/2016 18:23

And nowhere is that more true than in the profession of management consultancy...the people who apparently being entrusted to thrash out thousands of international trade agreements.

I can see Mark Carney seems a little irritated by May's inappropriate and public interference already. Who knows...maybe she'll try to get him kicked out on racial grounds. It wouldn't surprise me, unfortunately.

GreenandWhite · 07/10/2016 18:41

Wish us luck dear EU friends. Because this meritocracy is not one after all Sad surprise and we will be fucked because we haven't got the best people to negotiate Brexit deals. Good luck to us all.

jaws5 · 07/10/2016 18:47

Borrowed from comment section in the Guardian:

^Isn't it odd that since the Brexit vote that the terrorist threat has gone away, magically.
70 million Turks no longer are coming over
No-one needs deporting... strange.
Islam no longer poses a threat
Only Europeans are seen as the evil enemy.^

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Coatgate · 07/10/2016 18:55

Do people still read The Guardian?

WrongTrouser · 07/10/2016 19:14

Red Thanks for the thoughts on the Political Compass & referendum voting.

Figmentofmyimagination · 07/10/2016 19:26

What's your problem Coat? Is it too expert for you? Or maybe its too Metropolitan Liberal Elite... Or maybe it just contains views that contradict your own and it's easier to belittle than to engage. Fear not because there are plenty of papers to choose from at the more authoritarian end of the political spectrum.

jaws5 · 07/10/2016 19:37

Coat I read The Guardian daily, as well as browsing through the other British papers. I also read El Pais and browse through other European papers.
But I hear The Sun and the Daily Mail are the antithesis of the Metropolitan Elite, you could try those!

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