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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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HesterThrale · 06/09/2016 21:22

I do think the Government, after all their bluster, will really pause before actually pressing the Article 50 button. It seems like a huge, irreversible move. And if it goes badly, they'll lose the next election.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
DoinItFine · 06/09/2016 21:27

Who will they lose the next election to?

There is no opposition at all.

They could nuke the Black Country and turn the UK into a nuclear exclusion zone and there still wouldn't be another party to elect.

The Tories are terrifying when they face no opposition.

Currently, they face no opposition.

Operation 1930s continues apace.

merrymouse · 06/09/2016 21:38

If they had another series of "In the thick of it", would it still be satire, or just gritty real life drama?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/jeremy-corbyn-held-a-press-conference-with-ub40-and-i-have-no-id/

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/jeremy-corbyn-ub40-dullest-music-qa-of-all-time-hits-bum-note

merrymouse · 06/09/2016 21:41

From telegraph:

"Tomorrow: Owen Smith secures the backing of Kajagoogoo."

And who is to say it won't happen?

HesterThrale · 06/09/2016 21:45

I do agree with you Doinit, but after this year, I believe anything can happen in the wacky world of Westminister.

tabby007 · 06/09/2016 21:57

Considering everyone thinks it's going to be so economically bad for the country supposedly (although I'm sure the poor will pay not the rich), I can't see why the government insist on being stubborn and going ahead with it anyway (especially as even if we do Brexit those who voted aren't actually getting what they voted for so its all a farce) considering it should have been an opinion vote.
They want to blame the public for the mess but it's meant to be down to an MPs vote before a final decision.

I think the things that suit Theresa May best from the result is she can now change the human rights bill to the British rights bill like has wanted too for a long time, the British gov have far more control now to change laws and give its workers and citizens less rights and liberties, the government can have more power including more control over immigration (to suit them, not to suit the people choices) etc

The UN in June put out a report complaining that Britain and austerity had hurt the poorest the most with its austerity cuts and disproportionately and it went on about a lot of things about housing an disabled and unemployed.
But all this comes under the human rights act. Which conservatives wanted to get rid of long ago but can't if in the EU. Now we will leave (if we do) easily can change to British bill instead.

When austerity happened wages went down for most yet house prices went up more than ever before and interest rates were very low on mortgage repayments. Then politicians got a ten percent pay rise.
Retirement age increased for most but politicians done a u turn on their own and judges late retirement age keeping it at 60/65.

I don't know if Brexit will happen in the end.
But some parts of it will suit the government as gives them a lot more control over the laws.

prettybird · 06/09/2016 22:33

I think that the government will delay activating Clause 50 until it's close enough to the 2020 elections that the impact of Brexit won't yet be felt by the electorate Hmm

....or if they have felt an impact, it can be blamed it on nasty Remainers being negative or the bogeyman of Labour or the EU itself making an example of us......anything but the shitcreek that Cameron and the Conservatibes have got us into and dropped the paddle Angry

merrymouse · 06/09/2016 22:40

If they delay for long enough some other event might make it irrelevant.

(Or maybe I have been watching Game of Thrones too much!)

lalalonglegs · 06/09/2016 22:42

Yes, but short of a convenient war on our doorstep to focus the collective consciousness, I can't think what the event might be Sad

HesterThrale · 07/09/2016 06:54

So Australia, one of our best hopes for a post-Brexit trade deal, say they can't do it for at least 2 and a half years after A50. What would it be like to be a country with absolutely no trade deals for a time? Would it be possible to survive?
Would UK exporters go under?
Has this ever happened to any country?
Surely the Govt are beginning to wonder ...?

PattyPenguin · 07/09/2016 07:15

I think after article 50 is triggered the UK can continue to trade with the EU under the current rules until another arrangement is agreed on or until two years has elapsed, as it will still technically be a member. A50 is just a notification of intention to leave.

That's my impression, though I can't find chapter and verse on it.

HesterThrale · 07/09/2016 07:32

Yes Patty that would be a relief, but there'd still be a time lag wouldn't there? Two and a half years after a50 in the best case scenario with Australia, still means 6 months subsequently with no trade deal. If I'm understanding this correctly?

Mistigri · 07/09/2016 07:39

What is Britain going to sell to Australia that we don't sell already? I work for a large exporter and most of what we sell in Aus is manufactured at one of our plants in Asia.

Once A50 is triggered, the UK remains inside the EU until either 2 years have elapsed, or an earlier agreement is reached unanimously.

Re the Human Rights Act. Actually not really anything to do with the EU; its replacement with a British bill of rights was in the election manifesto. Anyone remember the 100 days promise? (we're now close to 500 days and nothing has happened). Repealing the HRA is complicated inside the EU or out, because both Scottish devolution and the GFA depend on it. This is why it was quickly renamed the English bill of rights, and then nudged into the long grass while the electorate was distracted.

PattyPenguin · 07/09/2016 07:54

Misti you have to wonder what we could sell to Australia. That country, on the other hand, is undoubtedly looking for other customers to sell to on an advantageous basis, partly in case of a slowdown in the Chinese economy.

Peregrina · 07/09/2016 07:59

At one time we would have sold high quality steel. I am not sure whether we will still be able to in the future.

It does seem to be something which the enthusiastic Leave camp have missed, "x, y, z are rushing to trade with us" translates as as ""x, y, z want to sell us stuff". Apart from the Tory Richard Graham who has declared that we can import cheap food from Africa, and we will sell them financial services. Hmm.

HesterThrale · 07/09/2016 08:20

Interesting but depressing interview with Australian Trade Minister on R4 Today prog at 7.35 this morning:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07syyrf

TheForeignOffice · 07/09/2016 08:27

...and more here on today's DT:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/theresa-may-brexit-confusion-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-live/

The snake pit is well and truly open for business. Let's the incompetence fest begin!

Peregrina · 07/09/2016 08:30

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/07/no-free-trade-deal-until-brexit-settled-australian-minister-steven-ciobo

Report from the Guardian about the Australian Trade deal i.e. it can't happen quickly.

Mistigri · 07/09/2016 10:28

I've come to the conclusion that I could happily live with a competent, pragmatic Brexit (this basically means EEA, at least for the first several years). I remain convinced that it's not the best choice for the UK, but it would work fine for me and my employer.

I'm not on board at all for an incompetent, chaotic brexit.

The problem is that Brexit will be hard. Hard politically, because of the cake and eat it problem, because of the enormous splits on this issue in the tory party, and because of the personalities involved (die hard ideologues like Davis and Fox are not well equipped to make complex decisions that will require them to listen and compromise). Hard practically, because of the enormous legal, financial, economic and even constitutional issues to be resolved. No one in government yet seems to have even acknowledged that it's complicated, or come up with a path that might enable the UK to negotiate the many obstacles it will face, and I see little reason to believe that they ever will.

What this means, IMO, is that if we get Brexit, it's more likely to be an incompetent and a chaotic one...

whatwouldrondo · 07/09/2016 10:29

Interesting briefing from Paddy Ashdown at Asia House (what was it an earlier PP said about the Libdems and pragmatism) along with the Australian Minister for trade tourism and investment saying much the same as he appears to have said elsewhere. Paddy Ashdowns comments on how Brexit has diminished our influence and standing in Asia was a theme running from a round table discussion with the Corporate representatives of companies with a particular interest in Asian markets. There was another interesting briefing with Nazir Ramak, Chairman of CIMB bank and brother Hmm of the Malaysian Prime Minister on the implications of Brexit for the Asian geo political and economic bloc, ASEAN and it's plans for greater integration. It is intrinsic to his comments that it is not the aim for greater integration that they are rethinking but rather that they need to focus on keeping the people behind that aim.

asiahouse.org/brexit-uk-likely-adopt-norway-style-model-add-bells-whistles-claims-ashdown/

asiahouse.org/australian-trade-minister-brexit-free-trade-talks-britain-started/

asiahouse.org/brexit-demonstrates-asean-way-works-will-lead-closer-uk-asia-ties-nazir-razak/

DoinItFine · 07/09/2016 10:48

I'm not on board at all for an incompetent, chaotic brexit.

Grin

Where's your sense of adventure?

Being part of Britain's final decline in international standing is a wonderful opportunity to be embraced with enthusiasm.

I'm surprised by quite how little worknseems to have been done over the break.

Whatever sense of control and pragmatism May managed to exude in July seems to have deserted her.

The rest of the world is bored with this now. Any complicated strategic Tory games are only likely to backfire.

lalalonglegs · 07/09/2016 15:15

Frustrating that Corbyn chose not even to allude to Brexit in the return of PMQs Angry. It was left to a SNP MP to try to hold May to account (he failed, btw as she just refuses to answer any question that she doesn't like the look of, absolutely no pretence that she will even attempt to address it). Corbyn gives every impression that he is delighted with the idea of Brexit because he seems to think it will be somehow good for workers - maybe we'll reopen the mines Hmm.

Kaija · 07/09/2016 15:18

It's a bit worse than that I'm afraid - apparently he has today refused to say that he's in favour of membership of the single market.

PattyPenguin · 07/09/2016 15:31

Corbyn is a Lexiter.

I can't decide whether he opposes the EU because he regards it as being vastly more favourable to capital and business than to the workers - and there is considerable evidence to back up this argument.

Or whether he's a fan of Creative Destruction, believing that the chaos caused by Brexit will usher in the rise of True Socialism. I'm convinced that many of his supporters espouse this belief enthusiastically.

I hope they know that many right-wingers are also licking their lips at the idea of all this destruction, certain as they are that it will provide a golden opportunity to Roll Back the State and usher in a dog-eat-dog free market in absolutely everything.

How can anyone know which side would win? I certainly won't be putting any bets on with W. Hill.

DoinItFine · 07/09/2016 15:41

I'd be prepared to make a substantial wager that the people with the vast majority of the power and money will win.