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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Thread gallery
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prettybird · 05/09/2016 18:03

Watching the news and listening to TM and trying not to shout at the TV say, "What the British people voted for was to bring some degree of control over the movement of European people....".

I don't remember seeing that statement on the ballot paper ConfusedAngry

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 18:06

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam · 1h1 hour ago

So @DExEUgov now has 180 staff and support from 120 in Brussels

Brexit is on the agenda of G20 as an issue
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/04/japan-brexit-demands-range-from-possible-to-fanciful
Japan are worried and write a letter. South Korea have also been voicing simple concerns

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/04/britain-japanese-brexit-letter-eu
More analysis of the Japanese letter and how they are trying to get the government to show their hands.

Korea have also been voicing concerns about their interests due to Brexit.

lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/09/the-new-blueprint/
Lord Ashcroft has an interesting piece on opinion of immigration v the single market.
Graph here

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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SwedishEdith · 05/09/2016 18:10

I really don't think David Davis is doing a good job at all. He's not actually saying anything (understandably?) - he just has a nice voice so gives the impression of saying something.

Kaija · 05/09/2016 18:10

Just marking my place.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
SwedishEdith · 05/09/2016 18:11

And Alan Brown has just agreed with me Grin

Peregrina · 05/09/2016 18:17

Because a lot of us do not grumble that much, just get on with it. I make no apology for writing to my MP. I don't call that grumbling, I call it democracy. Meanwhile, I get on with trying to live a decent considerate life, unlike some of the racist thugs who have been vocal since 23rd June.

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 18:20

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/uk-immigration-system-australia_uk_57cda444e4b085cf1ecf3237
Immigration to be tougher than Australia's.

Ian Dunt Verified account  ‏@IanDunt · 8m8 minutes ago
Davis saying we can conduct, but not give effect to, trade deals during A50. Tacitly accepts he was wrong when regularly saying otherwise.^

paulmonaghan.scot/politics-first-human-rights/
SNP MP has done a blog on human rights and Brexit.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/14587/what-are-theresa-mays-policy-priorities-as-parliament-returns/
What are Theresa May's policy priorities?

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RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 18:23

Swedish, he doing a good job of saying nothing. I actually think this is what he is currently required to do He is not being gloaty and he is being measured. He can't actually do anything else given our position requires up to 'not blink first'...

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TheNorthRemembers · 05/09/2016 18:24

Peregrina I have written yo my MP as well, but her response was quite disappointing. I just do not grumble to our family of leavers.

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 18:26

SNP MP just asked a very good question by saying 'what powers will be given to the Scottish Assembly post Brexit'

Davies dodged it. Naturally.

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Peregrina · 05/09/2016 18:30

My MP sent what appeared to be a standard letter, ducking the questions I asked, so I have written again asking her to answer the questions.

SwedishEdith · 05/09/2016 18:39

Red, I think we agree.

I've written to my MP as well and it's the elephant in the room issue with my ILs so who knows what they think we're thinking now? I suspect it will never be discussed until, oo, Christmas Day Grin.

TheNorthRemembers · 05/09/2016 18:42

I was brave and we discussed it. ILs think Leavers are in opposition and Remainers took over. They did not know about the triumvirate or Andrea Leadsom at DEFRA.

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 18:56

ILs think Leavers are in opposition and Remainers took over. They did not know about the triumvirate or Andrea Leadsom at DEFRA.

I think that tells you rather a lot.

I forget to say that Gove made a quip about how the electorate knew better than the experts. Again. Which Davies put down. Every time that man speaks I want to throw things at my telly. He has got worse, not better, since 23rd June.

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whatwouldrondo · 05/09/2016 19:01

I was no longer watching the ITN live coverage and its dancing emoticons when Gove appeared, I am sure it was flooded with angry faces AngryAngrySadSadAngrySadAngryAngrySadAngry

TheNorthRemembers · 05/09/2016 19:10

Please, do not mention Gove. I wish he was still hiding in toilets. I started liking Clegg again. Or Miriam, more like.

OrsonWellsHat · 05/09/2016 19:44

Gove Angry

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 21:45

Cleggy has a book coming out....

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/03/nick-clegg-did-not-cater-tories-brazen-ruthlessness

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/04/nick-cleggs-relationship-with-michael
He didn't like Gove. To the point that he refused to speak to him.

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RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 21:47

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/date-britain-quit-eu-finally-8751975?ref=yfp

Feb 2019 is the target.

My bet is it won't be.

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RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 22:04

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/exiting-the-european-union-ministerial-statement-5-september-2016

Brexit Department statement from today in full.

And we will strive to build a national consensus around our approach.
Let me translate this. The plan is to give us all a choice between a fucking awful deal or an even worse one so we all get behind the former. A bit like supporting Theresa May for PM. See they've already trialled the strategy and its proven to work.

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RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 22:14

Davies Statement in short.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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Peregrina · 05/09/2016 22:17

His statement actually says little of substance.

I picked out these sentences: We can create an immigration system that allows us to control numbers and encourage the brightest and the best to come to this country. and thought to myself, well we have already told our scientific researchers they can F* Off, and underwriting the commitments until 2020 is not promising anything which wouldn't have happened without Brexit. Our Junior doctors are leaving in droves. So I wonder what exactly he will do to encourage the brightest and best to come and our own nationals to stay?

We start from a position of strength. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, there will be challenges ahead. But our economy is robust: That IMO is a lie. One reason people voted for Brexit was because they had been left behind in terms of prosperity, and allowed the EU to get the blame. But the EU is not the cause of zero hours and temporary contracts.

HesterThrale · 05/09/2016 22:36

TheNorth, Peregrina and Swedish, I also wrote to my MP in late July. He hasn't replied so I wrote again last week pressing my question. I actually think these MPs have no idea how to answer our queries and are waiting in vain for their leaders to give them a clue.

OlennasWimple · 05/09/2016 22:43

Just marking my place as project "Brexit Means Brexit" lurches along...

BlueEyeshadow · 05/09/2016 23:14

Oh lordy, I'm depressed again reading all that.

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