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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Peregrina · 30/09/2016 18:55

I don't think turnip cakes is an exaggeration. I imagine that they could be quite sweet when used in a cake. Then there was some veggie pie, called Lord Woolton's pie. Whale meat, or 'whaley' was not nice, so I was told.

Dapplegrey1 · 30/09/2016 19:43

Patty why do you feel the need to explain that you're not posh? Is being posh a crime amongst Remainers?

Ostalgie has been around since reunification proved to many East Germans not to be the be all and end all.
Of course the East Germans envied the freedom to travel, luxury goods and other aspects of life in the West which they could watch as Western TV channels could be picked up in the East - apart from a few places such as Dresden (the valley of the clueless) which could not receive the broadcast.
Many were cut off from friends and family by the Wall.

Such freedoms and luxury goods, though, were only available if you could pay for them, so the East Germans' Trabis weren't automatically exchanged for a BMW.

The surveillance and the Stasi interference (with extremely serious consequences to anyone breaking the draconian laws of the GDR) heavy censorship etc. plus the drabness of life made it unbearably restricting and stultifying so citizens took huge risks to escape.

However, if you were prepared to put up with those aspects, then there was full employment and child care and you were secure.
After reunification all that changed and people used to life under communist rule found life under capitalism very different - and not always to their liking.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 21:47

Lord Ashcroft ‏@LordAshcroft
As the UK considers its future relationship with Ireland due to open borders we must give consideration to our relationship with Gibraltar

Is he seriously saying what I think he's saying?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37513463
May talks to the BBC about NI

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37513552
And Scotland.

And says nothing. Still. Except no U-turn.

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/30/jaguar-land-rover-brexit-ralf-speth-eu-british-cars?CMP=share_btn_tw
Jaguar Land Rover are now after compensation, after EU 'boycott' British made cars over fears about tariffs.

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby
Snap poll on @SunderlandEcho website. 70% worried about #Nissan's post-#Brexit future. #EUref? 61% of voters in Sunderland voted Leave.

Peter Sloman ‏@pjsloman
Now this is interesting: 80% of Lib Dems local by-election wins since May have come in areas which voted to Leave

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Peregrina · 30/09/2016 22:49

As far as I am aware, the Lib Dems haven't lost any seats since May. I haven't looked at the results before then. They mostly seem to be taking seats from the Conservatives. This trend was apparent before the Referendum, so it's not necessarily a result of that. It's funny that it's not reflected in National polls, but maybe its just easier to make a protest in a by election, then return to the fold for a GE.

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 22:55

I can't work out what Ashcroft is saying about Gibraltar - the word limit on tweets makes it hard to develop arguments.

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 23:11

I can't work out what Ashcroft is saying about Gibraltar - I'd be amazed if it made any sense in any form. The company I work for has a significant number of staff based there, and needs to have them there for licensing reasons, some of who live in Gib, and some live in Spain. There really are significant issues for the entire sector (gambling) around the status of Gib, and several large UK operators have staff based there. I don't understand all the issues (I don't work in that area) but it is causing some serious discussions across the industry.

Unicornsarelovely · 30/09/2016 23:14

With regard to the lib dems, they've always been very good at local level so where they present a sensible option for council elections, they're reliably good. It also helps build a respectable on the ground campaign for the general election.. (hopefully!)

Mistigri · 01/10/2016 07:25

It's funny that it's not reflected in National polls, but maybe its just easier to make a protest in a by election, then return to the fold for a GE.

It's always been the case in the UK that smaller parties due better in council elections, european elections and by-elections.

Part of this is because people are more likely to register a protest vote if it's not going to determine the actual government, but I imagine a far bigger part is simply down to turnout.

Where turnout is very low, your sample of voters is not the same as in a GE. People who vote in council elections are more politically committed and/or have stronger opinions than the general electorate. They may also be more educated, or at least more aware of local news and politics.

Mistigri · 01/10/2016 07:27

Due better? "Do better" lol.

Anyway, check out how many people voted in some of those council by-elections. You can win a council seat in some places with a tiny number of votes.

PattyPenguin · 01/10/2016 08:49

Anna Soubry says Liam Fox's speech on free trade was delusional or almost delusional, depending on which source you read.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/30/anna-soubry-brands-liam-foxs-free-trade-speech-delusional
www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/79434/anna-soubry-blasts-delusional-liam-fox-over-brexit

I expect she thinks the man himself is delusional, but can only attack what he actually says.

Peregrina · 01/10/2016 09:24

The i leads on a story today that Polish builders along with bankers will be given exemptions from Brexit. The bankers I can understand; after all these are just spoilt metropolitan types. Polish builders? Won't that get Leave voters frothing at the mouth? Isn't that what they voted to curb.

Never fear, the Express says a hard Brexit is on its way. But that's a statement from Micheal Fallon, and I don't know whether he is an insider or just a hard line Eurosceptic.

Peregrina · 01/10/2016 09:34

Now this is interesting: 80% of Lib Dems local by-election wins since May have come in areas which voted to Leave

On reflection, most by elections have been in England, and the Leave vote was predominantly English, so it's not really surprising.

Corcory · 01/10/2016 10:03

Peregrina - I suspect it was mainly disgruntled remain voters that voted LibDem and that the leave voters are the ones who didn't bother to come out and vote at a local council election.

Peregrina · 01/10/2016 10:10

What does that say about Leave voters then? The end result in Stow is that they now have their first Lib Dem local councillor instead of being true blue Tory.

CeciledeVolanges · 01/10/2016 10:18

lalalonglegs Mark Elliott is one of the most widely respected public law academics there is (Paul Craig, who agrees with him on this, is also well known and well respected) and the gist of his post is that the government is correct on the law, and it isn't legally obliged to consult parliament. However, neither is it legally obliged to implement Brexit. Normally Mark Elliott emphasises the role of politics in constitutional law.

twofingerstoGideon · 01/10/2016 11:02

the leave voters are the ones who didn't bother to come out and vote at a local council election.

And yet they're so keen on being in control.

Bearbehind · 01/10/2016 11:13

the leave voters are the ones who didn't bother to come out and vote at a local council election.

Statements like that are incredibly frustrating.

It seems that far too many Leaver think this was all over on 24th June rather than the truth which it was the complete opposite and just the beginning.

As twofingers said, if they voted for 'taking back control' why can't they be arsed to now vote for who will represent them.

The reality is, they don't realise how it works.

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 11:19

www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/the-tory-party-is-bracing-itself-for-all-out-brexit-war?utm_term=.ejlRJe6b3#.gyRYDdRm8
War. Tory War. What is good for? Absoluetely nothing. Say it again.

www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/labour-mps-split-on-free-movement?utm_term=.pilzJ8w3V#.eyK7DzPJX
Whilst Labour may split on free movement.

The Mark Elliot thing scares me. The only thing is that the government have someone leading the defence, with very little public law experience; he is much more familiar with criminal law.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/assimilation-and-the-immigration-debate-shifting-peoples-attitudes/?utm_content=buffer45b75&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Assimilation and immigration. LSE piece which highlights how the media is influencing white working class.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-makes-bold-pitch-core-8953063
May pitching for workers rights. End to zero hours contracts.

The professionalism of Johnson

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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Motheroffourdragons · 01/10/2016 11:19

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 11:36

Mother, we won't see it until after the a50 litigation is concluded including any resulting appeals. This is likely to be at least the Spring.

The government can't show their hand. It undermines their case for a50. If they show their hand, they CAN be legimately challenged on the defence of rights which the Royal Prerogative can not be used for.

Politically, diplomatically and economically this is a complete disaster.

Why the newspapers haven't picked up on this, is beyond me.

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tiggytape · 01/10/2016 11:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 01/10/2016 12:22

In last Thursdays by election in Stow the turnout was 40.5% suggesting that the Lib Dems put some effort into getting their vote out. Some annoyance was apparently expressed about David Cameron letting the side down.

By contrast the Tories won in Cherry Willingham, West Lindsey, with a dismal turnout of 17.62%

ManonLescaut · 01/10/2016 12:46

It's the Express so it needs to be taken with a ton of salt, be interesting to see if May slaps this one down as well.

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 13:21

The Centre for Social Justice The Tory Right Wing have handed May a plan. (IDS, Redwood, Lilley, Owen Paterson, Sheila Lawlor, Shanker Singham, James Arnell, Bernard Jenkin)

lif.blob.core.windows.net/lif/docs/default-source/publications/the-road-to-brexit-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0

I've yet to even glance at it. I am led to believe its essentially ‘Unilateral Continuity’ but I could be wrong. It 56 pages long so will take a while when I do get a minute.

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