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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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PattyPenguin · 07/09/2016 15:47

DoinItFine I very much doubt you'd get good odds on that wager down the bookies.

tabby007 · 07/09/2016 16:16

You are right PattyPenguin

tabby007 · 07/09/2016 16:17

Everything in the Lexiter post

Kaija · 07/09/2016 16:23

"...he opposes the EU because he regards it as being vastly more favourable to capital and business than to the workers - and there is considerable evidence to back up this argument."

Is that true though Patty? You surely can't blame the EU for all the effects of globalisation. How have workers fared outside the EU over the same period?

Not sure to what degree Corbyn's comments come from his personal beliefs, as opposed to appealing to Labour voters inclined to be seduced by UKIP. Both I suppose.

TheBathroomSink · 07/09/2016 16:40

Thought AB had gone a bit quiet since he got back from rubbing shoulders with Trump:

BBC Radio Solent ‏@BBCRadioSolent 3h3 hours ago
UKIP members have received phone calls from Leave.EU asking if they would support a new party, a senior Hampshire figure has said. #UKIP

Tim Farron is still attempting to provide some opposition:

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 1h1 hour ago
Quote of the Day, @timfarron on EU: "The Govt isn't concealing it's hand, it hasn't got a hand. Or a clue". Reasonable statement so far.

TheBathroomSink · 07/09/2016 16:43

New Statesman on Corbyn/Single Market

As the piece says, aligns him oddly with Conservatives.

PattyPenguin · 07/09/2016 16:51

The main criticism of the EU from the left is the "liberalisation" agenda, mainly the privatisation of public services and the drive towards a "flexible" labour market. The first does lead to profit-taking by corporations, at the expense of customers and the workforce, and the second does lead to precarious employment and a "race to the bottom" in remuneration and working conditions.

TheBathroomSink · 07/09/2016 17:22

Kezia Dugdale has written to NS to reiterate that Scottish Labour supports the SNP's attempts to find a way for Scotland to remain part of both the UK and the EU, asks NS if she will release any legal advice she's received on the issue.

Kaija · 07/09/2016 17:24

Aligns him with UKIP and beyond too, BathroomSink.

Meanwhile Mumsnet's most prolific UKIP apologist has been posting extremely enthusiastically about Corbyn on here for the past few days. Interesting times.

tiggytape · 07/09/2016 17:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaija · 07/09/2016 17:39

yes, I'm well aware of the Lexit stance - I just feel that blaming the EU for the inequalities arising from globalisation is a bit like blaming the lib dems for everything the tories did in the coalition years. There might be more they could have done to stop it but they weren't the driving force.

tiggytape · 07/09/2016 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiggytape · 07/09/2016 17:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 07/09/2016 17:56

I have been avoiding these threads because I seem to have stuck my head in the sand and avoid all things Brexit.

Read the G20 coverage though and it brought me back to Earth.
Fucking hell.

Kaija · 07/09/2016 17:59

Ah yes, I see what you mean, tiggytape.

Figmentofmyimagination · 07/09/2016 18:02

It's all going to be fine - Australian wine is going to be a whole 15p a litre cheaper, according to tonight's evening standard - let's all put the f**king flags out - at least we can drink ourselves into a stupor, capitalising on this saving - while somewhat pathetic in scale, the more you consume, the better it gets.

And it's eminently sensible to celebrate and embrace the opportunity to ship tens of thousands of litres of a product from the other side of the world that is already amply provided for in ...errr ...Europe.

DoinItFine · 07/09/2016 18:47

DoinItFine I very much doubt you'd get good odds on that wager down the bookies.

No, you never great great odds on a sure thing.

But probably still better than most saving rates, so possibly still worth a punt.

Andante58 · 07/09/2016 19:26

I agree with hoping the Japanese make good their threats Peregrina

Bear behind you want people in Sunderland to lose their jobs to punish them for voting for Brexit?

Peregrina · 07/09/2016 19:51

I don't want to see the people of Sunderland lose their jobs, because they were lied to. Although, having said that, Nissan did warn that they might have to rethink their strategy and recommended voting to Remain, so you might say that Sunderland would get what they wished for, since they chose to ignore the advice.

The sad thing is that it will be the younger people who will find a way to up sticks and seek their futures elsewhere.

I would dearly love to see Farage, Gove, Johnson be made to pay for the lies that they told, but they are wealthy men and it won't happen.

OrsonWellsHat · 07/09/2016 20:19

Sunderland will be fucked if the Japanese pull out. The cataclysmic financial and job losses will,hopefully, be the end ukip in areas affected, and a 'concrete overcoat' for Farrage.

OrsonWellsHat · 07/09/2016 20:22

Silly me, I meant when they pull out, brexit, after all, means brexit.

Peregrina · 07/09/2016 20:24

I am not so sure about the concrete overcoat for Farage, although it's no better than he deserves. Sadly, I think it will be Labour which gets the blame. However much of a mess Labour are in now, I can't in a million years see the Tories giving Sunderland any support. (Not a Labour supporter BTW.)

Kaija · 07/09/2016 20:24

You know that it won't though. They will be persuaded to blame the Japanese/the establishment/foreigners/women in burkas... Anything but Brexit.

Kaija · 07/09/2016 20:25

Oh yes, forgot about labour. They'll be blamed too if there's anything left of them to blame by then.