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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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whatwouldrondo · 06/09/2016 16:08

As I understood it a minority government would have ended in another general election sooner rather than later and government would have been paralysed by having to agree to negotiate with minority parties a working majority on every single issue.

The other option was the Lab /Lib coalition but that would have also been a minority government and what the Libdems found was a divided party. www.newstatesman.com/2010/12/labour-lib-andrew-coalition

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 16:35

I think that the first year of this governmenr suggests that the Lib Dems were more effective than they were given credit for.

I have also read somewhere that the current generation of senior civil servants found the coalition government in general and the lib dem ministers in particular easier to work with and more effective than previous majority governments.

TheBathroomSink · 06/09/2016 16:49

I have also read somewhere that the current generation of senior civil servants found the coalition government in general and the lib dem ministers in particular easier to work with and more effective than previous majority governments.

I'd be inclined to wonder if that wasn't because they were all a bit shocked to be there, and therefore more likely to take directions from those civil servants.

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 16:52

I'd be inclined to wonder if that wasn't because they were all a bit shocked to be there, and therefore more likely to take directions from those civil servants.

That may be so, but it could also be that coalition government results in more pragmatic and less ideological decision-making.

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2016 16:53

Where did you read that, Misti? IME there were good and bad ministers on both sides of the Coalition (though Lib Dems tended to be more paranoid that things were being kept from them, as the minority partners)

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2016 16:54

I think coalition government lends itself to more considered decision-making, as there's less opportunity to circumvent the proper clearance processes to take through new policies

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 17:11

Olenna unfortunately I can't remember, as I read a lot of political/ legal articles, but it has stuck with me and logic suggests that there may be some truth in it. Centre parties are by their nature less likely to attract individuals with extreme ideological positions and more likely to appeal to people who value pragmatism and compromise. Of course this also helps explain why they find it hard to get elected ;)

prettybird · 06/09/2016 18:16

I think there is also an element of politicians who've been in power too long (and this applies to any party) becoming complacent, so therefore newbies (of any colour party) are keen to get on and "do" things - so will be seen justifiably as more effective.

EmilyAlice · 06/09/2016 18:21

What I want to know is - will it be a continental Brexit or a Full English? Grin

IrenetheQuaint · 06/09/2016 18:43

They are setting up a new Brexit committee, I believe.

RedToothBrush · 06/09/2016 19:09

Turns out David Davies, the man 'in charge of Brexit' got it wrong.

He said that staying in the single market was 'improbable'.

However, this now turns out to not be government policy, and actually we DO want to stay in. May is not too happy with Davies.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/david-davis-single-market-stance-not-government-policy?CMP=twt_gu

Kevin Schofield ‏@PolhomeEditor
BREAKING Labour MPs vote 169-34 in favour of bringing back Shadow Cabinet elections. Looks like the Corbynistas are agin it.
Well, that looks healthy. A way to take over from Corbyn by stealth?

OP posts:
tabby007 · 06/09/2016 19:11

Imagine you are parents, and you have 8 children, and there are rules and traditions as part of being the family.
You all live in harmony then one day son Jack says "pass the salt."
So the dad says "you know how it is son, say please."
Jack replies adamantly "no I won't say please because I should have been given the salt first then I wouldn't have had to have asked for it in the first place as its Tuesday so tonight it was my turn to have the salt first!"
The dad looks at Jack and speaks softly. "Son, in this house manners are important. You know the way we do things. Say please or else leave the table and no dinner until you apologise to everyone for your rudeness."
The son Jack still insistant says stubbornly "no dad I will not say please and I will not apologise for I am right."

The dad says "but you know the rules, everyone in the family must say please and thank you at the dinner table." As he thinks to himself if I let jack of, then what will become of the other children? They too will see that if Jack does not have to follow conduct and behave with good manners, why do they have to have to follow such rules themselves if he can get away with it no consequences.

Two days pass and Jack still refuses to apologise and is therefore still not allowed to join the family or eat dinner.
His mum and dad do not know what to do.
They know they can not let Jack not eat and starve. But if they give in and allow Jack to eat dinner without apologising the other kids could start behaving badly too and so far they have had such a good family.
It wouldn't be fair on the other siblings that Jack should be allowed to be treated different or be let off behaving badly without consequences and then expect the other kids to see that example.
So they can't risk that for the sake of the one son.
Do they punish the son in another way to force the boy to apologise so they can give him dinner again?
They do not know what to do
Then the father has an idea.
He goes to Jack and has a talk with him.
He says "Jack, you know we love you. We want you to have dinner with all of us again. But you need to apologise."
"I can't dad" says Jack.
"Look Jack" says the dad, "In life one lesson is learning to know when to say sorry when we should, when to be humble when we should, cooperating for the sake of the good of the team. If you don't apologise then you give us no alternative but to send you away. If you live under our roof you must follow our rules. If you don't apologise you don't get dinner until you do and you know and I know you will starve, if this goes on any longer, and we can't have that, so jack as you can't follow the rules of this house I'm going to send you to your grandparents house. You give me no choice. Well actually it is you that has the choice. Apologise and live here or stick to your guns and leave and go and live with them."

Jack made his choice.

So jack was banished to live with his grandparents.

His brothers and sisters were even more careful not to break the family rules as they knew where they stood. Just as Brexit meant Brexit and rules were rules.
They didn't want to end up like Jack. Banished and alone and different and outside of the main family home. Being outsiders.
Their parents sent them to private school, was going to give them a deposit for a house if they done well at university, their parents had trusts funds for them to go to uni, their parents loved them and protected them and were reasonable parents so long as they paid their due which was simply to follow the few house rules.
So it seemed a fair trade of.
Except for one or two of the rules they didn't like, like having to do the washing up every night after dinner.
Obviously if they could have had a totally free ride with the same benefits they would have preferred that.
Now Jack didn't have to wash up as he didn't live here with them anymore but he didn't have the private school or trust fund for uni or deposit for the house still to come from the parents just like those that left the EU even though once UK done a Brexit it didn't have to pay in anymore but it was to lose all its privileges and perks.

One day the siblings bumped into Jack.
"How you doing?" they asked
"I'm great!" he said
They said to him "but it must be crap going to a academy school though?"
"Actuall" Jack said, "granddad sent me to Eton."
"Oh" they said.
"It must be awful knowing there's no money for university" they said.
"actually they have a fund for me and I'm going to Oxford" Jack said.
"Oh" said the siblings.
"Going to be hard to buy your own home once you start work."
"Actually" jack said "grandad has promised to buy me a penthouse in London overlooking the Thames if I do well in my studies."
"Oh" says the siblings.
"Do you have to wash up?" Asked the siblings?

"No never" says Jack

"But you know what?
I love my grandparents very much and they me and they are so good hearted and treat me so well that I help out all the time when I can anyway, only I don't have too.
And when I'm grown up I'm gonna take good care of them too

The end

lalalonglegs · 06/09/2016 19:18

So which countries are going to be the UK's grandparents? Will nice Granpa China or Uncle Russia be setting us up for a cushioned landing Hmm?

BlueEyeshadow · 06/09/2016 19:44

Er, what?? Hmm Confused

TheBathroomSink · 06/09/2016 19:45

That kind of reads like something Andrea Leadsom would come out with...

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2016 19:50

tabby did Jack also get a unicorn?

TheBathroomSink · 06/09/2016 20:03

I think Jack is a unicorn

RedToothBrush · 06/09/2016 20:06

Jack had magic beans.

OP posts:
tabby007 · 06/09/2016 20:08

Smile perhaps

prettybird · 06/09/2016 20:14

Even if there were stupid grandparents who would bale a child out in this way, even especially on MN, any good parent would know that this is dreadful parenting, bringing up a spoilt brat who thinks the world owes him a living Hmm

But I too am struggling to think of any countries grandparents a) with that much money and b) who are that stupid.

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 20:34

Well, two of the last four old Etonian PMs have ended their Premierships in ignominy, namely Cameron and Eden. MacMillan's degenerated into tiredness and scandals and Home was in office for such a short time that he hardly had chance to achieve anything. So maybe the Etonian education is not such a wonderful gift after all?

tabby007 · 06/09/2016 20:50

The point is that if we leave and do well other countries will want to leave too so they are determined to make an example of us and make sure our terms and conditions are harsh etc.
The story just a story.

The bad thing is now the gov will just use Brexit in their favour again (favour to help the richer) still immigration numbers to suit themselves, change laws to their convenience etc etc
So those that voted Brexit aren't getting the deal they voted for anyway even though the government are saying they are giving democracy and listening to the people.
The British person can never win damned if they do damned if they don't under the sneaky Tory

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 20:53

I agree that the vast majority won't get what they thought they voted for. I remember going to a debate once 'Whoever the people vote for, the Government always wins'.

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 21:13

If people vote for having their cake AND eating it, it's not bloody surprising if they don't get what they voted for.

tabby007 · 06/09/2016 21:19

I think the elite have their cake and eat it too (everyone else gets the crumbs) and austerity being too harsh was one reason many of those in the poorest parts in the country voted leave. Not about having their cake and eating it. They never even had a cake in the first place Cake