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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
mathanxiety · 06/09/2016 06:18

Just placemarking..

HesterThrale · 06/09/2016 06:19

Yes, and what's making me really angry is the lack of any opposition. Where is the Labour Party and JC? They should be severely questioning everything the Govt say and do. I didn't even see him in the House yesterday? Where is he? He hasn't said anything about what's been going on lately, just campaigning for the leadership. Precious wasted months. This could prove to be critical.

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 07:33

I agree about the lack of opposition. With the Labour party being so supine, I now hope that severe criticism from world leaders make the Government realise just how stupidly they are behaving. Brexit means Brexit; Economic Suicide means Economic Suicide.

usuallydormant · 06/09/2016 07:58

Hmm, wonder if you are going to be able to attract the brightest and best to the UK if they can't do things like transfer their pensions etc back to their home countries (guess my ten yrs contribution to the UK pension system will disappear once you Brexit...). Or get kicked out out the country if their job goes and their visa goes along with it (and given there will probably be little in the way of employment protection once you leave the EU, this is quite likely). But I guess these are just details.

Add to this, the terrible damage this process is having on the image of UK plc. The choice to leave was mad, but ok, it's the will of the people. But the follow up is staggering - the UK political class is showing itself to be totally inept, pretty ignorant about how the rest of the world works and incapable of policy planning or strategic thinking. And Davis's non speech doesn't help. How much confidence can any foreign business have in a country like this?

Perhaps other EU states had a bit of pity at the start for the government having to sort out the mess the referendum left them in but at this point they must be despairing of the UK government's ability to figure anything out. Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan is also the Nobody Likes Us and We Don't Care Plan.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/09/2016 08:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BestIsWest · 06/09/2016 08:52

Away on hols so just marking my place.

Thanks again Red.

Am putting off the depressing decision on who to vote for (or not) in the Labour Leadership until I get home.

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 09:18

MPs were not happy with the lack of detail from David Davis, about Brexit.
Guardian
From the FT - (google the headline to bypass the paywall):
MPs attack government’s Brexit strategy for lack of detail

Even the most ardent Leavers ought to be clamouring for detail.

PacificOcean · 06/09/2016 09:55

Place marking

TheBathroomSink · 06/09/2016 10:20

I thought it was shocking how few MPs bothered to turn up yesterday, given that this was Davis' first statement to the House on the Brexit processes. Couldn't see any sign of my MP there, which didn't surprise me at all, given that he still hasn't replied to my email immediately after the referendum result.

ManonLescaut · 06/09/2016 10:56

He didn't really say anything that was worth turning up for to be fair.

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 10:57

Am putting off the depressing decision on who to vote for (or not) in the Labour Leadership...

Me too. The lack of opposition is truly depressing.

SwedishEdith · 06/09/2016 11:04

Saw this on Twitter yesterday but not sure how to make it a link.

It's story 'After voting to leave the European Union, how is the mood in the North East 10 weeks on? #BrexitBritain' on this page twitter.com/BBCLN from yesterday. Need to scroll down a bit.

TheBathroomSink · 06/09/2016 11:10

He didn't really say anything that was worth turning up for to be fair.

I know, but presumably they couldn't be sure of that in advance. Plus, it was an opportunity to ask questions in that way oppositions are supposed to do...

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 11:13

Found it Swedish. The saddest comment was "I don't know. Everyone said vote out, so I just voted out." I was much more moved by the impassioned young woman who talked about the lack of resources to make the country great again. (Great Britain being a geographical term anyway!)

I had more sympathy with the older lady who wanted us to make things in Britain again. Yes, well, how about it, James Dyson? You were a Leave supporter. How about putting your money where your mouth was and bringing your factory back here?

ManonLescaut · 06/09/2016 12:11

Dyson has his own problems having been discovered to have built an underground swimming pool complex in his grade 1 listed home without planning permission...

Unicornsarelovely · 06/09/2016 12:12

I was reading the Simon Hattenstone interview with Nick Clegg over the weekend and this comment really struck me - he's framed it in relation to himself (pre 2010) and Corbyn now, but I think it applies equally to Trump, and probably Farage:

"What you’re seeing across the developed world, particularly among university-educated youngsters active on social media, is a movement from one figure of hope who can deliver the next Jerusalem to the next."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/03/nick-clegg-did-not-cater-tories-brazen-ruthlessness

Hopes are being pinned on individuals or events which either cannot deliver (because they're messy and human and depend on interactions with other people or countries outside our control), or the individual does appear to accept the mantle of the figure of hope, and immediately turn off anyone who is not already committed to him.

On a broader note, John Harris is always interesting and this is a useful article www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/does-the-left-have-a-future.

ManonLescaut · 06/09/2016 12:18

Yes I saw that. How can anyone in government not be prepared for Tories 'brazen ruthlessness'?

Unicornsarelovely · 06/09/2016 12:48

I suppose DC had been trying to play nicely (until he won the election)...

PattyPenguin · 06/09/2016 13:22

I can't decide whether Nick Clegg was naïve or faux-naïve. FGS, the Tories are the Nasty Party, have been for decades, at the very least since the demise of the post-war consensus. What did he think had changed in 2010? He's been in politics more or less since he left university (political journalism, lobbying, MEP, MP) so he can hardly plead ignorance of the true nature of the Conservative party.

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 13:32

I don't know, Patty. There was a period early in his tenure as party leader when Cameron was making some rather convincing noises about a return to one nation conservatism. His liberal stance on social issues was probably also reassuring to the Lib Dems.

I know a few centre left types who thought that they could vote for Cameron at a push. I might even have given it some thought myself, if I had had a vote.

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2016 13:47

I agree - DC's stance on thing like gay marriage (which he forced through against the wishes of most of his party) made him someone that the Lib Dems could do business with.

And I don't think anyone could seriously blame the Lib Dems for going into coalition in 2010: what was the alternative?

Anyway, I have a Q about Brexit Parliamentary scrutiny: has it been decided which select committee will be responsible for Brexit issues? I guess both the Home Affairs and Foreign Affairs committees would have a locus

lalalonglegs · 06/09/2016 14:03

Surely they should set up a separate parliamentary committee to scrutinise Brexit because having two select committees essentially fighting over it means that it all becomes about which one gets control of it rather than how well they do their job. But, of course, that would be the sensible and transparent approach.

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 14:06

I always thought that the Lib Dems should have let Cameron form a minority government. Was that not possible?

ManonLescaut · 06/09/2016 14:38

I agree Patty I figure it's a combination of naivety and disingenousness.

No-one's blaming him for going into the Coalition, just being completely ineffectual once he was there.

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2016 14:38

Quite, lalalonglegs. Especially while the HASC is deciding what to do with their errant chair...

Personally I don't think it was, Peregrina - they would have been beholden to minority interest groups like the UUP and DUP to get their numbers up on certain legislative issues, for one thing. And remember the global economic turmoil at that time: it was imperative to get stability into government, and I can't see how a minority government could have avoided being pushed into an autumn election with the hope of then getting the numbers for a working majority

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