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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 17:36

And let's face it. With the UK out of the EU, tht 7.5% market will surely contract.

Why?

Where else will we get cars from with a BMW badge?
I can't see anyone who is buying a BMW for the status it carries suddenly deciding that they would prefer something else.

People who buy BMWs buy them for what reason now when there are cheaper alternatives already available.

Many BMWs are bought by companies for employees as perks of the job and this comes out of their tax allowance. If the price of cars goes up, they won't switch cars as the ones they select are about 'making a certain impression'. A sales executive turning up in a Dacia gives off a different message about the company they work for than one turning up in a BMW. Most of the time employees are given a choice of certain cars they can have only - they do not have a free choice.

No it will just get off set against wages and come out of pay packets.

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CousinCharlotte · 29/09/2016 17:37

He's an absolute deluded twat Hmm

Corcory · 29/09/2016 18:12

Prettybird - I listened to LF's speech and I don't remember him saying that 'other countries were going to thank us for it'!
He did say something to the effect that trading tariffs are not a good thing and that we should try and get as much free trade as possible with developing countries and help them out of poverty.

He can be a bit of a fool but I don't think he is a deluded twat!

prettybird · 29/09/2016 18:13

I think to be fair, the 7.5% contracting comment was about the size of the UK market contracting due to the damage Brexit will do to our economy Sad - so that it will become an even smaller proportion of the German export market.

At least, that's how I read it.

Nightofthetentacle · 29/09/2016 18:35

Here is the entirety (enormity?) of what he said, or intended to say, I dunno. It is long.
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/liam-foxs-free-trade-speech?hootPostID=d2ab979130cfaa83c5583220730cf3a2

Some choice nuggets, random emphasis mine:

"Today, we stand on the verge of an unprecedented ability to liberate global trade for the benefit of our whole planet with technological advances dissolving away the barriers of time and distance."

"A visit to a local supermarket will not reveal much Scottish wine or French whiskey, testament to Adam Smith’s foresight. "

"250 years ago we pioneered canal networks and invented railways..."

"...North Korea..."

"The British people have presented us with a glorious opportunity to reset our global trading relationships, place ourselves back in the centre of an increasingly interconnected world and build an economy that works for all.

It is a challenge where success will buy prosperity, stability and security, not only for the people of Britain, but that which can be shared across the globe. "

On this evidence, I think that CousinC is correct to say that he is deluded, and he is indeed a fool, but twattery is unconfirmed.

CousinCharlotte · 29/09/2016 18:39

I wonder who wrote his speech? I bet it wasn't him.

PattyPenguin · 29/09/2016 18:44

Indeed, no. Politicians have speech writers on their staff, and one hardly keeps a dog and barks oneself, does one?

merrymouse · 29/09/2016 18:45

Yes, because globally and in the UK there is a big populist movement to increase free trade. Nationalism isn't an issue at all, and when Hilary and Donald are busily rubbishing existing and proposed trade agreements, it's actually code for "we want a trade agreement with the U.K."

Yes, I think the big take home from Brexit is just open up the UK to more free trade.

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 19:44

Speaking of cars....

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-autoshow-paris-nissan-britain-idUKKCN11Z1YQ
Nissan sets 'hard Brexit' compensation condition for new UK investment

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RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 20:59

Tonight's by-elections:

Tyldesley, Blackpool (LAB)
Brynmawr, Blaenau Gwent (Ind - Free for all)
Stow, Cotswold (CON)
Adeyfield West, Dacorum (LAB)
Allestree, Derby (CON)
Glaven Valley, North Norfolk (LD)
Finedon, Wellingborough (CON)
Cherry Willingham, West Lindsey (CON)

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mathanxiety · 30/09/2016 06:15

If for no other reason, the story of Daniel Hannan's life in an echo chamber should be used as a very strong argument against the sort of education that produced him and his cronies:
'Elliott had also proved adept at bringing rightwing donors and thinkers to what was a dry, democratic exercise. Leach had chaired the campaign. While Crispin Odey, a hedge fund manager who later contributed more than £650,000 to pro-leave groups, chipped in £20,000. (In the run up to the vote, Odey bought gold and bet against house-building companies. On 24 June, as the pound collapsed, he made around £220m. “Crispin,” as a friend told me, “has the common touch of a Medici.”)'

Sadly there are plenty of other reasons, among them that this is a fable that should teach the danger of appeasement.

If anyone thinks these people are going to stop with the Leave vote when there is money to be made selling off the NHS and 'restoring' Britain to the condition of America before the anti trust laws, I fear they are sadly mistaken.

Oblomov16 · 30/09/2016 06:46

Thanks OP for your clear concise summary.

KarmaNoMore · 30/09/2016 07:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 07:06

I'm just reading about Hannan now. What saddens me, is that how completely ordinary 'hard-working families', (to coin a phrase), will be completed shafted by him and his cronies.

As you say, mathanxienty appeasing these people is no good. It's time Theresa May and those MPs who voted Remain woke up to this.

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 07:44

Tyldesley (Blackpool) result:
LAB: 48.3% (+10.0)
CON: 26.8% (-2.4)
UKIP: 21.5% (-0.5)
LDEM: 3.3% (-2.3)

Allestree (Derby) result:
CON: 54.6% (-6.1)
LDEM: 28.7% (+17.2)
LAB: 11.1% (-5.8)
GRN: 3.1% (+3.1)
UKIP: 2.5% (-8.5)

Glaven Valley (North Norfolk) result:
LDEM: 55.3% (+8.4)
CON: 36.2% (+3.8)
UKIP: 4.1% (-6.8)
LAB: 3.0% (-2.8)
GRN: 1.4% (-2.5)

Stow (Cotswold) result:
LDEM: 64.9% (+21.0)
CON: 35.1% (-21.0)

Cherry Willingham (West Lindsey) result:
CON: 51.1% (+12.2)
LAB: 26.5% (+0.6)
UKIP: 22.4% (+22.4)

Allestree (Derby) result:
CON: 54.6% (-6.1)
LDEM: 28.7% (+17.2)
LAB: 11.1% (-5.8)
GRN: 3.1% (+3.1)
UKIP: 2.5% (-8.5)

Looking at this and hearing how unelectable Corbyn has made the Labour party, the results for them don't look too bad. The Tories still look to be the ones more vulnerable to UKIP, IMO.

The other result to note is that Stow - not a million miles away from Witney, and the same sort of pleasant, horsey country, has been taken by the Lib Dems. I think it's extremely unlikely that anyone but the Tories will win in Witney, but I do see them having there majority cut.

missmoon · 30/09/2016 08:57

Those are great results for the Lib Dems. Also some UKIP loses, are UKIP voters drifting to the Tories, and centrist Tory/Lab voters drifting to the Lib Dems?

RBeer · 30/09/2016 10:25

What if the dream of brexiteers becomes a nightmare.

Unicornsarelovely · 30/09/2016 10:45

That Stow result is very interesting indeed. Oxford itself has always been Labour in the east (which won't change as the MP is superb) and the west flits between conservative and lib dem, getting more conservative as it becomes more rural.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 11:24

RBeer Fri 30-Sep-16 10:25:04
What if the dream of brexiteers becomes a nightmare

You mean, What if the dream of brexiteers becomes the reality it only ever could be?

Well. Yes.

Stow, is more West Country in its character than Oxford, and that has traditionally been strong LD. However all the Gloucestershire MPs are currently Tory and the local council was made up of 24 Tories, 14 Lib Dems, 9 Lab, 3 Independents, 1 UKIP and 1 Green (until last night's by-election).

The constituency of The Cotswolds, which Stow falls into is considered strong and safe Conservative. At the last General Election the current MP Geoffrey Robert Clifton-Brown got 56.5% of the vote whilst the LD candidate came in at 18.6%. This has been consistent since the formation of the constituency in 1997, with the Tories having over 50% of the vote on all but one occasion.

That is, indeed, a storming result. It does have to be translated into the constituency as a whole though.

I think when the GE comes could make a real difference. A series of a lot of local LD wins will start to make people think that a LD win is possible and will vote accordingly. The LDs perhaps need the GE to come later rather than sooner for that reason.

I do find it interesting that Westminster voting intension for the GE when these kind of results are happening. I can't help but wonder if there is a shift going on that's not being picked up on these polls because they are not looking at constituencies. I know the LDs have done better in locals too though. The difference is very curious.

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TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 11:45

The Tories still look to be the ones more vulnerable to UKIP, IMO.

I don't know. It looks like where there are existing Ukip councillors, they are reducing their share of the vote, but where they have not stood before (or did not stand in the previous election for that seat), they are taking a decent share of the vote.

I can see a couple of reasons for that - people are often attracted to the shiny and new, and it is easy to make all manner of promises when you do not have to work within existing structures. We do know, from the existing councillors that Ukip has had, they when they are elected, they frequently fall out with each other and either become independents or defect to the Tories. I also feel like they get into trouble with the police at a higher rate than other parties, but that might just be that it gets reported more, I'm not sure on that.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 11:48

Oh and the LDs also took Adeyfield West last night.

Adeyfield West (Dacorum) result:
LDEM: 49.5% (+24.4)
CON: 22.2% (-4.6)
LAB: 15.8% (-8.7)
UKIP: 10.9% (-12.7)
GRN: 1.6% (+1.6)

This is Hertfordshire.

The fact that on both occasions the LDs have close to 50% of the vote is compelling to suggest there is a political shift going on somehow even allowing for the difference between local and national politics.

Again all MPs in Hertfordshire are Tory. The MP for Hemel Hempstead which I believe Adeyfield West falls into, is again considered currently 'safe' tory with over 50% of the vote at the last GE and the previous. (It was Lab in 2001).

Dacorum council is now after last night's result 45 cons, 3 Lds & 2 lab.

I don't think that result will have been expected somehow.

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TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 11:53

On Stow, according to Election-Data, it was fairly close between the Tories and Lib Dems before:
"The present Stow ward was created in 2015 by dividing the former Beacon-Stow ward in half, and adds to the town the small parishes of Maugersbury and Swell. This means that there aren’t many previous results to go on, but the northern Cotswolds is a true blue part of the country anyway. That said, the only previous result on these boundaries was relatively close, the Tories beating the Lib Dems 56-44 in a straight fight."

The Tory candidate this time had previously been a councillor here under the old boundaries.

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 11:56

Adeyfield wasn't entirely surprising:
"Adeyfield West is a fascinating marginal ward with a high councillor attrition rate – this is the third by-election here in the 2010s. On its current boundaries the ward dates from 2007 but is not much changed from the pre-2007 Adeyfield West which was safe Labour. The modern Adeyfield West is anything but. In 2007 its two seats split between Labour and Conservative, and a by-election in March 2010 saw the Tories hold their seat with just 33% of the vote in a poll which saw a good Lib Dem third place and 14% for the BNP. 2011 was a return to the status quo ante, but a by-election in March 2013 saw Labour lose their seat – not to the Tories, but to the Lib Dems who despite polling just 15% in 2011 held, and fielded, the ward’s county councillor. The Tories and Lib Dems held their seats in 2015 in one of the closest four-way splits you will ever see: the re-elected Lib Dem councillor, who ran a long way ahead of his running-mate, had majorities of 11 votes over the second Conservative candidate, 19 votes over Labour and 43 votes over UKIP. Shares of the vote in 2015 were 27% for the Conservatives, 25% for the Lib Dems and 24% each for Labour and UKIP, so there really is everything to play for here." election-data.co.uk/by-election-previews-29-9-16

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 11:59

From election data.

Adeyfield West is a fascinating marginal ward with a high councillor attrition rate – this is the third by-election here in the 2010s. On its current boundaries the ward dates from 2007 but is not much changed from the pre-2007 Adeyfield West which was safe Labour. The modern Adeyfield West is anything but. In 2007 its two seats split between Labour and Conservative, and a by-election in March 2010 saw the Tories hold their seat with just 33% of the vote in a poll which saw a good Lib Dem third place and 14% for the BNP. 2011 was a return to the status quo ante, but a by-election in March 2013 saw Labour lose their seat – not to the Tories, but to the Lib Dems who despite polling just 15% in 2011 held, and fielded, the ward’s county councillor. The Tories and Lib Dems held their seats in 2015 in one of the closest four-way splits you will ever see: the re-elected Lib Dem councillor, who ran a long way ahead of his running-mate, had majorities of 11 votes over the second Conservative candidate, 19 votes over Labour and 43 votes over UKIP. Shares of the vote in 2015 were 27% for the Conservatives, 25% for the Lib Dems and 24% each for Labour and UKIP, so there really is everything to play for here

That's a big change in just over a year.

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