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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Thread gallery
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TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 22:42

Thanks night, sadly I am also allergic to flowers. And Christmas trees. I basically exist on anti-histamines, although it does mean I never have to hoover up Christmas tree needles!

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 23:18

You know how Science is complaining that their EU funding is getting stuffed and put on hold.

Well, spare a thought for Ireland. Apparently 120 million Euros of cross border funding are now 'stuck in the system'. Because of a foreign country with an identity crisis.

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick
Whenever a politician says he's "not going to deliver a running commentary", I know he's not just a cliche-merchant, but in serious trouble

Allergic to Christmas Trees?! That is my idea of hell. I'd have one all year round if I could. I was gutted last year as we had to have a plastic one due to 1 year old and the same will be repeated this year due to marauding toddler (we might yet have to dispense with the plastic one going on his current behaviour).

Immigration. So apparently Brexit means that people want to reduce it. However, ask them if they want to pay for that and

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 23:43

Meanwhile this is how sovereignty in Gibraltar is shaping up. Spain has shown its hand. Note not just stuff about Gibraltar but references to the environment, fishing and civil aviation. This is starting to look like a NI in that its an issue that can not be resolved without going against the expressed referendum vote on sovereignty and the result of the EU referendum. If Spain are saying this now, then any further progress with negotiations isn't going to be smooth...

Translated version below
www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-margallo-pide-apoyo-ue-excluir-gibraltar-negociaciones-brexit-20160928182912.html

Margallo calls for support for the EU to exclude Gibraltar negotiations Brexit

Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, has formally asked its EU partners to exclude Gibraltar from the negotiations to be opened with the United Kingdom to make its exit from the community club (Brexit) reality, decided in the British referendum last June 23.

The head of Spanish diplomacy has sent Wednesday a letter to European foreign minister, all except the British, which asked for their "support and understanding" for UK can not negotiate with Veintisiete a new status for Gibraltar within the EU, but that this issue should be negotiated bilaterally between Spain and the United Kingdom.

Gibraltarians are overwhelmingly in favour of continuing within the EU and pushing for UK negotiate some sort of special status for the Rock that would allow them to maintain closer ties with the EU which will have UK once he leaves the community club.

Spain strongly opposes this possibility and press in turn so that if Gibraltar wants to continue to benefit from being within the EU and maintain for example, access to - crucial single market for the prosperity of its economy - look forced to accept formula of co-sovereignty, because at the time that Britain leave the EU Treaties shall cease to apply immediately also in this territory.

In the letter, which has had access Europa Press, Garcia Margallo stresses that it is "fundamental" to Spain this issue is excluded from the negotiations, it has spent years insisting resume bilateral negotiations with the United Kingdom around the question of Gibraltar, stalled since 2002 failing in the proposed joint sovereignty, which also rejected in a referendum Gibraltarians.

Also periodically UN General Assembly is urging Spain and the United Kingdom to resolve through dialogue the dispute maintaining the sovereignty of Gibraltar.

"I am convinced that Spain and UK will be able to find a formula acceptable to both and in the interests of the people of Gibraltar, so that they can continue to benefit from the advantages derived from application to Gibraltar of the Treaties of the Union European" says the minister in his letter.

"With this will prevent further that the dispute between Britain and Spain adversely affected, as it is doing now, certain aspects such as, for example, blocking European legislation in the environmental field, fishing or civil aviation" adds.

Before heading to this European colleagues, Garcia-Margallo wrote another letter to Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, to overtake its intention to propose to the other partners this exclusion of Gibraltar from the negotiations and to propose a meeting where we start talking about the affair.

"Until we attain this bilateral agreement will not be possible to define the new relationship of Gibraltar with the EU" he warned Garica-Margallo in his letter to Johnson.

In the letter to his colleagues in the twenty-seven, the Deputy minister a report reviews the historical background of the dispute, the United Nation doctrine on it and the impact that the dispute has to implement certain EU policies in the territory.

In that report, the Minister proceeds with the formula co-sovereignty Gibraltarians could benefit from a special status that would allow them to acquire the Spanish nationality without having to give up the British.

Gibraltar could also enjoy a high degree of autonomy, "as wide as the current" except in foreign policy and defense, which would competencies both in the UK and Spain.

To date, Gibraltarians have remained steadfast in their fierce opposition to accept the co-sovereignty, while Britain also maintains its position in recent years, passing say that not enter into any bilateral negotiating process with Spain with which Gibraltarians do not agree.

In any case, negotiations with the United Kingdom to go specifying its disengagement from the EU will not start until London activate article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, which is providing the output of a Member State and which has never been implemented to date.

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TheBathroomSink · 29/09/2016 08:21

Red, I'd go for one of those half-trees you can fix to the wall, if that works with the room you usually keep it in.

Spain are totally going to use this as a way of screwing Gibraltar, aren't they? It's going to end up as 'you can stay in the EU but only if you become joint-ruled'

Cxc78 · 29/09/2016 10:17

Spain will certainly will actively seek to take advantage of the situation. Whether there are new elections in December or Mariano Rajoy becomes president before that due to the recent coup in the socialist party they will certainly use Gibraltar as a diversion from all the corruption scandals that are pending / emerging. This question has always been a vote winner for them.
If taken out of the EU, Gibraltar would have to be fully subsidised from Westminster as Spain will virtually close the border and the local economy will collapse, contraband will come back with a bang no doubt. As a en example, pre-brexit Spain closed the air space to the RAF so Hammond's flight have to divert to portuguese air space (when he was foreign secretary). Garcia Margallo's hand will not shake in this matter.

PattyPenguin · 29/09/2016 10:29

The Tories are gearing up for a bit of a fight discussion at the party conference next week on Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/former-tory-ministers-demand-clear-brexit-plan-theresa-may

The last paragraph is interesting:
"In a separate development, a German business group, the Federation of German Industries, said it would be better for the UK to pursue a so-called hard Brexit that involves fully leaving the single market."

The group, BDI, is an umbrella body of various trade associations in Germany - members listed here english.bdi.eu/bdi/members/. Those include the VDA, the association of motor manufacturers which numbers Audi, Opel and VW in its ranks.

Where does this leave the argument that German car manufacturers don't want a hard Brexit because it would mean disadvantageous tariffs on exports of their products to the UK?

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 10:41

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37502578?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
And the Italian PM has waded in. He says that Brexit must mean a loss of right (that might be handy for the a50 challenge...) and that there must be hard Brexit no 'fudge'.
Nothing to do with him trying to scare his own electorate to not vote against him in his own referendum then?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/brexit-negotiations-could-cost-tens-of-millions-of-pounds-says-report?CMP=twt_gu
Brexit could cost millions.
You don't say...

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-mays-mps-slam-non-8938080#ICID=sharebar_twitter
Ken Clarke and Nicky Morgan join the ranks of the grumbling Tories.

brexit853.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/fom-isnt-the-problem-the-problems-are-uk-governments-failure-to-implement-properly/
FoM isn't the problem. Its the government's failure to implement restrictions that were available to them. A anti-Brexit blog which says its myth busting about the FoM rules.

The Wall Street Journal on Brexit
www.wsj.com/articles/no-quick-fix-to-city-of-londons-brexit-conundrum-1475104871
Interesting about passporting and EU reg. One of the best articles on the subject I've seen.
The last paragraph is stark though:
After all, the political pressures on the U.K. are surely higher. The EU generates an estimated 25% of U.K. financial services revenues, and the City generates an estimated £60 billion in U.K. tax revenues, according to KPMG, which suggests the U.K. could be facing a £15 billion budgetary black hole—and that excludes any impact on sectors reliant on City spending. That would confront the government with some unpalatable political choices—possibly more unpalatable than disappointing hard-line Brexiters.

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TheForeignOffice · 29/09/2016 11:04

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/theresa-may-is-running-a-government-with-no-policies-claims-ken/

Not sure if this already been shared. He's correct, obviously.

CousinCharlotte · 29/09/2016 11:38

Government Brexit Report states Brexit likely to cost tax payers £65 million a year, the hiring of 500 civil servants to implement it and also says the Brexit departments are wasting money as they are 'fragmented', who'd have thought it hey Grin

CousinCharlotte · 29/09/2016 11:40

FUKD, I'd say.

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 12:17

Ken sounds like he's voicing no confidence in Theresa...

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TheBathroomSink · 29/09/2016 12:21

Interesting profile of Daniel Hannan here

This part is particularly gobsmacking:
"He admitted that because of the closeness of the vote, we were unlikely to become the “offshore, low-tax, global free-trading entrepôt” that he longs us to be. Hannan’s chosen Brexit would be rather soft, by current standards: something along Swiss lines, with opt-ins for various sectors to the regulations of the single market. He believes that compromise on free movement is possible, and that the Swiss government was making progress on the subject until talks were shut down before the British referendum. There is precedent, he pointed out, in his Hannanite way: EU immigration to Liechtenstein is capped at 71 people per year."

Yes, we should all aspire to be Liechtenstein.

Nightofthetentacle · 29/09/2016 12:38

I've heard "the Liechtenstein model" before. "there is precedent", indeed.

Liam Fox gave a speech. Plenty on twitter about it. Implies hard Brexit and demonstrates he has little knowledge of owt. Included the words "that's the glorious joy of free trade" which seems to have started something rather wonderful storify.com/tomchivers/he-is-the-very-model-of-a-disgraced-defence-secret

PattyPenguin · 29/09/2016 12:39

The EU lets Liechtenstein limit immigration because it's a genuinely small state - 160 square kilometres with a population of 37,000, giving a population density of 526.5 per sq km.

The UK is 242,500 square kilometres and has a population density of 269 per sq km.

I can just see the EU going "Yeah, that's comparable, UK, alright, you've got it!"

TheBathroomSink · 29/09/2016 13:06

That Fox storify is hilarious.
Tom Freeman
‏@SnoozeInBrief Tom Freeman Retweeted Tom Chivers
"I am the very model of a failed former minister
If I were halfway competent you'd find me jolly sinister"

Rupert MyersVerified account
‏@RupertMyers Rupert Myers Retweeted Tom Chivers
He is the very model of a disgraced former Defence Secretary / He likes to run his Brexit schemes through Mr Adam Werrity

Rupert MyersVerified account
‏@RupertMyers Rupert Myers Retweeted Tom Chivers
He is the very model of a disgraced former Defence Secretary / He likes to run his Brexit schemes through Mr Adam Werrity

Are my favourites. And now I've got the bloody song stuck in my head, and I'll probably have to go and watch the West Wing episode.

mupperoon · 29/09/2016 13:29

@TomChivers "No matter what I say about the niceties of Brexit...
You can be sure Theresa May invariably corrects it."

My personal fave!

Thanks Red for these threads, I have learned a lot from you all and even despite everything had a few laughs...

PattyPenguin · 29/09/2016 14:13

According to the story on the BBC website www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37504966 Liam Fox wants "a post Brexit Britain to be a full independent member of the World Trade Organisation".

Perhaps he should have a little read of this first:
www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit

OK, the ICTSD doesn't speak for the WTO, but it's business is knowing how trade negotiations and agreements work.

Peregrina · 29/09/2016 15:35

Reading the WTO article above made me furious with the idiots who are supposedly negotiating. If we have to leave the EU because trying to agree with 27 other countries causes us problems, how on earth do they think that negotiating with 162 others will be easier?

If Cameron had done his homework properly and let his hard line Eurosceptics research the possibility of Brexit, we might have had something sensible to put to a Referendum. Or, it might have made them STFU when they realised that it would be very difficult to exit the EU.

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 16:02

thejusticegap.com/2016/09/13799/
Article about why the defence of the a50 litigation was kept secret and required a court order to become publically available.

I'm glad someone has done this, as when I was reading through it yesterday I was thinking, "there must be something in this that is sensitive, but I can't spot it".

The article, which is a lawyer, confirms it doesn't though.

The conclusion is this:
We should, as lawyers and as citizens (and as non-citizens who may be greatly affected by Brexit), be deeply worried that we do not know the reasons why the state argued in favour of secrecy and that there is not yet any indication that those reasons will be revealed. This should worry us because in a case of exceptional public interest, with no apparent reason why the arguments should be withheld from the public eye, the state requested secrecy. Even though the court refused the request, the fact it was made at all is grounds for concern.

Its starts getting more concerning when put in the context:
The referendum where the leading Brexit campaigners were not properly scrutinised and held to account in their promises.

The election of Theresa May without a general election and who is seemingly not necessarily going to stick to the manifesto her party were elected on and there is serious talk about going against the pledge to protect business interests in the single market.

The fact that May is refusing to keep the public involved and engaged with negotiations (whether there is merit in this or not) and "will not give a running commentary"

The fact that May even wants to use the Royal Prerogative rather than an Act of Parliament in the first place.

The fact that the Brexit vote was supposed to be a reaction against unaccountability in Europe and so far seems to be being replaced by even less accountability.

The fact that senior ministers are repeatedly coming out with statements and opinions which are complete, well bollocks, to the point that both us and senior EU diplomats are actually laughing at them.

The fact that PM is contradicting her ministers on a regular basis.

The fact that Brexit means Brexit is at best, a cynical way of dodging the legal bullet of admitting rights will be lost in order to use the Royal Prerogative and at worst the sign that the government are utterly out of their depth and are floundering.

The scale of the issue means that the need for scrutiny is essential and perhaps higher than in most other issues because of the scope of its implications. The mere idea that this can be kept secret and managed by a very small number of people is disgraceful and raises questions about democracy in its own right.

www.monckton.com/parliamentary-scrutiny-brexit-negotiations/
This article makes the point about how important it is that we avoid tokenism on this score. Its completely right.

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RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 16:06

Sorry, got attacked by small boy and posted too soon.

We are already being told that there will be no second referendum and this will be settled before the next general election, and there is no consensus over what Brexit is.

It makes you wonder about abuses of power on a massive scale.

I am hoping to god for this reason the courts really do stick it to the government as this is actually quite worrying and is getting increasingly so.

There is a worry here that its also so big and so encompassing as an issue that it will actually be impossible to scrutinise the issue as it is, without requests for secrecy along the way.

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PattyPenguin · 29/09/2016 16:15

More clarity on my point above about the BDI, German exporters and their supposed unwillingness to see tariffs imposed on trade between the UK and EU
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/german-business-leader-warning-brexit-trade-uk

"In remarks likely to be seen as increasing the likelihood of a “hard Brexit” excluding Britain from the EU single market, Markus Kerber, head of the BDI, dismissed claims that German companies would not tolerate trade tariffs after Britain leaves, and said Germany’s relations with the rest of the bloc were more important.

“I have read a lot of articles in the British press saying Germany would be a relatively soft negotiator because 7.5% of German exports go to Britain,” Kerber told BBC Radio 4’s today programme. “Well, 7.5% is a big number – but 92.5% goes somewhere else.”"

merrymouse · 29/09/2016 16:25

"Well, 7.5% is a big number – but 92.5% goes somewhere else.”"

And a lot of the 7.5% may not be particularly price sensitive - it's not as though there will be an alternative Germany next door selling knock down BMWs.

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2016 17:08

If people want to buy a car made in Britain they would already be doing it.

If people want to buy a BMW, they can afford one.

The car example is such a load of bollocks. Who will be most effected will be someone like Dacia who is producing new cars, and selling them on the price point alone and not the badge. And in turn the people most effected by this will be the people who can't afford a BMW now, never mind with a tariff.

The second hand car market will do well, although it will also end up costing people who can't afford it more, due to the increase in the cost of parts.

The mind boggles when people start talking about how Germany will listen to us because of their car market. These are people who really don't get it.

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RBeer · 29/09/2016 17:09

And let's face it. With the UK out of the EU, tht 7.5% market will surely contract.

prettybird · 29/09/2016 17:21

I was listening to Liam Fox on the 5 o'clock news. It makes me embarrassed again to be Scottish see my earlier comments about Brian Monteith Blush

He was spouting on describing how Britain would lead the world in creating a free market economy and all the other countries would thank us for it Hmm and we will be a land of milk and honey

I'm sure he believes in unicorns and everlasting cake too Wink