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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 15:12

That Aberdeen Uni blog cheers me for some reason - I think there is lovely thrawn determination to "Well, if you think can use this measure to leave that union, then we shall use it to leave this union." [drops glove, repairs to bar].

Peregrina · 28/09/2016 16:34

One person at the new ministry said Dexeu had attracted more than 250 applications for 20 senior job vacancies, despite reports that civil servants were reluctant to work on Brexit.

Is that because they have caught sight of the Gravy Train waiting at the station, ready to pull out when its destination is known?

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 16:59

www.cityam.com/250135/leave-eus-customs-union-serious-trade-and-aid-policy

Pro-Hard Brexit piece.

Best paragraph?

The UK must leave the Single Market because the latter's focus on manufacturing and agricultural goods puts Britain, with our great strength in financial services, at a disadvantage, fuelling a growing trade deficit with the EU; the cost of its regulations are borne by the whole country rather than just by those firms that export to it; and we are required to pay a membership fee for this dubious privilege while submitting our domestic laws to its unaccountable politicians and justices.

I'm not sure where to start with the article as a whole after that...

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Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 17:31

Oh for fuck's sake! Play bingo with it?

"take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation"
burdensome regulation
"unaccountable politicians"
"strike the trade deals with emerging nations"
EU responsible for lack of African farming profitability, Britannia alone can save them like we did that time in the 19th C that was really popular
no mention of NI/Ireland
no mention of burdensome regulation in exporting to the EU customs union
no mention of impact on UK agriculture
assumption that our glorious financial services can instead be sold to our new colleagues in developing economies

I am increasingly have those itchy fingers that go along with feeling powerless in a situation. I...want...to...fix...this...

Tim Farron was talking some sense earlier, which he has done a few times recently. www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/09/were-running-out-time-stop-hard-brexit-and-consequences-are-terrifying

prettybird · 28/09/2016 17:33

Not sure I can bear to read it after your intro Red Hmm

It epitomises what has gone wrong with the UK economy....Sad

prettybird · 28/09/2016 17:37

....quite apart from the belief in unicorns and everlasting cake that means that this fantastic economy based purely on financial services will still have a market in the EU without the financial passport and we can find lots of other willing customers elsewhere in the world Hmm

Peregrina · 28/09/2016 17:46

"take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation"
How can we take back something we never had?

Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 17:49

Dun't matter, does it - it sounds good. Anyway, because I am avoiding work faffing, from the author's bio:

Brian has over thirty years experience of public relations and marketing

Experts, eh?

PattyPenguin · 28/09/2016 18:27

Brian has over thirty years experience of public relations and marketing

Huge apologies for those of you employed in those fields, but my experience of PR and marketing people is that they are paid bullshitters who know little or nothing about the things they're promoting.

SwedishEdith · 28/09/2016 18:29

BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime 36m36 minutes ago
This Thursday's complete #bbcqt panel in handy collage form: Priti Patel, Emily Thornberry, Steven Woolfe, Bonnie Greer & Rod Liddle.

Not sure I can bear to watch - Bonnie is the only bearable one.

GloriaGaynor · 28/09/2016 18:37

Cameron was in PR, just sayin'

TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 19:15

I'd watch QT if I could get stinking drunk during it, however as I have to get up Friday morning for the school run, that isn't possible. I cannot watch Liddle, Thornberry, Patel and Wolfe on screen at the same time whilst sober!

HesterThrale · 28/09/2016 20:27

So are taxpayers going to have to pay more tax to maintain public services, after this potential £10 billion loss of City tax revenues?
I'm sure Leavers didn't envisage that.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hard-brexit-could-cost-10bn-in-lost-taxes-hl2mkf5s0

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 20:29

Just having a look at some betting odds.

Johnson is fav at 6/1 to be the next Tory leader, followed by Hammond at 8/1. The interesting one is George Osborne who the odds have crashed to 10/1. (Gove is down at 33/1. This is the same odds as Rory Stewart!)

The first Cabinet minister to leave; Fox is 3/1, Johnson is 5/1, Leadsom 6/1, Davis 7/1, Greening 8/1, Hunt 10/1, Patel 12/1 and May 16/1.

Article 50 to be triggered; 2017 1/5, Not before 2021 4/1, 2018 10/1, 2019 33/1 and 2020 33/1. The odds on not before 2021 have come in massively.

Date of the next General Election? Its evens on before 2020. Again, this has come in massively. This could be because people think it more likely May will call a GE, but it also could be related to an inability of May to trigger a50 thus setting a no confidence motion in action leading to a government collapse. And yes, if the a50 challenges are successful then this does become much more likely, with all the implications this entails.

The Labour Party have today said on twitter they are preparing for a 2017 GE. Arron Banks has said similar and I believe that the Lib Dems are also preparing for a 2017 GE. The Tories are the only ones who are apparently not preparing for this (I do not believe that, judging on what's come through my door lately).

More mess. More political vacuum.

David Allen Green summed up the governments a50 defence:
The government's stated legal position on Article 50 is that any Prime Minister, on a whim, could withdraw the UK from EU.

Which you don't have to be a lawyer or constitutional expert to know is bollocks as a position.

SupaDrogulus @SupaDrogulus
@DavidAllenGreen no one may be able to define brexit, but brexit may end up defining sovereignty. Oh, the irony.

DH has suggested that the questioning of the power of the crown could undermine the position of the Royal Family. I think he is vastly overstating it, but he thinks it could be setting up on course for a Republic at this rate, given the car crash of what the government are up to. The trouble is that the Queen hasn't got much longer left and there is then the Charles question. He does not enjoy the same respect to say the least. I joked waaayyyyy back in the referendum debate that the Royals would be next if we rejected the EU as 'the elite'. If it happens its a way off, but I do think Brexit would be seen as the first step towards in it retrospect...

In other news:
www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-catalonia-idUSKCN11Y2FR?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=57ec145d04d3012e8bfc6fc0&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
Catalonia are threating to have an independence referendum with or without approval from Madrid. This reinforces pressure that Spain won't want to do anything favourable for Scotland post-Brexit.

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HesterThrale · 28/09/2016 20:29

Or will the Government, as a party who work to keep taxes low, just pare back services even further?
It could get desperate.

prettybird · 28/09/2016 20:31

Just noticed who the author of that Cityam opinion piece is.

On behalf of Scotland, I apologise for the infliction of his opinions to a wider audience Hmm

Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 20:42

Opinion piece here by Nick Cohen. It is not exactly cheering. In summary - we need to hold those Brexiteers who sold a lie to account (BJ, Farage, Vote Leave). Labour won't do that (for various reasons detailed). If we don't rid ourselves of immigration, Aaron Banks et al will be thrilled and "will be able to roll out all the old tunes. They will say that ‘the people’ have been ‘stabbed in the back’ by ‘the elite’." We cannot in any case rid ourselves of immmigrants. Without the EU to blame, everyone will blame the immigrants for everything.

I think we are now supposed to feel energised and come together to fight this new extreme right wing foe.

I think I am ready.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 21:03

I read the Nick Cohen piece. I thought that the liberal minded centre might get a bit angry at this rate. Have you ever seen an angry centrist? I'm guessing its a bit like Tom Watson doing a silent disco crossed with Nicola Sturgeon getting tough and serious dressed like Tim Farron who stands like George Osborne. This is a truly frightening prospect which will have Kippers diving for cover.

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/09/the-real-brexit-choice-not-hard-v-soft-but-open-v-closed.html
Conservative Home piece. Its not Hard v Soft Brexit but Open v Closed Brexit.

www.derrynow.com/news/taoiseachs-all-island-brexit-initiative-welcomed-by-sdlp-leader-colum-eastwood/119496
The Irish President is stepping directly into the Brexit debate in search of an 'all-island' solution and making sure the democratic will there is respected.

Theresa May's government risks sinking an axe of simplicity into the layered complexities of the Irish political process. We are now desperately in need of an Irish solution to a European problem. The people of Ireland endorsed a European context to our peace process in 1998.

This is taking back control of our own Sovereignty. Oh dear.

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TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 21:15

Perhaps it will be the gin industry that saves the economy.

I think we also need to develop a UK based vodka industry, and quickly. Whisky is obviously going to prop up the Scottish economy,and we'll just have to tell the Caribbean that rum is ours now.

Seriously, we're going to need much more alcohol.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 21:35

Scotch will no longer be protected by EU law so we will need Gin.

We will be fine here though. We homebrew. DH bought half our local homebrew shop before it closed down. I could have killed him at the time. Maybe he saved us afterall.

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Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 21:35

Grin Could the Angry Centrists be a band perhaps, with Tim Farron on lead vocals? I think he is really very adorable in this picture

and YY TheBathroomSink! An economy based on neat spirits will work very well. Didn't we have a Gin Craze before? Apparently that was driven by trade tariffs, so there is direct precedent... www.history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-london/18th-century-gin-craze

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 21:54

I really need the domestic vodka industry to take off, though. I'm allergic to juniper.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 22:20

Without the EU vodka and gin will not be properly regulated.

It may no longer be clearly labelled and may be mixed up, due to the market being flooded with cheap Chinese spirits, which may or may not contain juniper.

I lie. But hey we are post fact now aren't we?

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Nightofthetentacle · 28/09/2016 22:30

Flowers (not juniper) for your affliction, Sink.

Er, this is a thing?
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/09/exclusive-shami-chakrabarti-set-become-shadow-attorney-general

TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 22:40

Apparently so. That was one of the 'surprising' names for the new shadow cabinet. Although given she'll be in the Lords, and the actual AG is in the commons, can that actually work?

Anyway, much suspicion that this job was actually her reward for the anti semitism report, and the peerage was just a means to an end, is abounding on twitter.

On a serious(ish) note, unregulated cheap Chinese spirits would be bad, and not just for the obvious hives-in-my-mouth reason.