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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Peregrina · 30/09/2016 12:00

As far as I can see I think the Tories are still more vulnerable to UKIP. They only did well in one place last night - in what might be called a UKIP heartland of Lincs.

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 12:03

The 'they' doing well referred to UKIP.

I am glad to see a general turning away from UKIP - I have hopes that we are not a nasty racist country after all.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 12:35

You know the enquiry into child sex abuse that was set up by Theresa May? The Sun have come out this morning calling for an end to it. The editoral reads:

End this farce
The vast historic child abuse inquiry is falling apart and should be scrapped.
It has gone through three chairwomen and now its two top lawyers.
It has achieved nothing and we suspect never will.
Its scope is absurd - 60 years of alleged abuse right across British society.
We all sympathise with the victims.
But no one will ever get closure from this unmanageable probe.
The Government needs the courage to pull the plug.

Meanwhile in Brexitland
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chaotic-exit-would-lead-to-infighting-fears-pm-69j5fjgvp
Chaotic exit would lead to infighting, fears PM
Amid growing nervousness in Whitehall over the potential for a disorderly exit from the EU, British diplomats have been charged with sounding out other European governments over what kind of future deal is feasible.

There's a confirmation that there's no plan and what's currently going on is about managing the internal party right there.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam posted 10 tweets last night re Mrs Thatcher and Nissan. Its a very good read but difficult to repost here as he put in lots of images of text for reference but his comments read:

^Mrs Thatcher's briefing in 1982 ahead of Japan trip where she met Nissan boss, and persuaded him to export cars in UK to single market (image of interview with Mrs Thatcher and journalist. She talks about meeting the president of Nissan and getting him to invest in the UK)
"dependence of Britain on exports to Europe meant no realistic prospect of Britain leaving the EEC" - how Mrs T persuaded Nissan, 1982
(image of text which explains how Mrs T said there was no realistic prospect of leaving the EEC in response to the fact that Nissan only wanted to deal with a single entry point to the EEC).
3/10 1982: Mrs Thatcher attacked Labour for wanting EEC exit, on account of danger to embryonic Nissan-Datsun deal
(image of said account between Mrs T talking about in HoC)
4/10 memo from Nissan boss to Thatcher 84, getting annoyed she had raised it at a g7 summit - shows how delicate always been re politics
(image of Nissan boss, not liking the investment being politicised.
5/10 Mrs Thatcher's speech on opening Nissan Sunderland - geared towards free access for European exports:
www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106470
6/10 in 1989 Mrs T goes into bat for Nissan with Mitterand, after France wanted to slap quotas/tariffs on Sunderland exported Bluebirds
(image of Mrs T defending Nissan interests in UK against France)
7/10 Thatcher calls Single Market "greatest attainment" of that time. France backed down re Bluebirds after threatened court case... at ECJ!
(further image of above story)
8/10 In a speech in Tokyo, Mrs Thatcher says she 'backed to the hilt' Japanese investors like Nissan, accessing single market from UK
(and more)
9/10 Thatcher speech imploring business to "make a success" of single market" created by her friend Arthur Cockfield
www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
10/10 history, political shyness, long term thinking = context for important Japan memo I revealed "you invited us" as Europe gateway.
(Final image which Islam highlights the following point:
"In light of the fact that a number of Japanese business, invited by the Government in some cases, have invested actively to the UK, which was seen to be a gateway to Europe, and have established value chains across Europe, we strongly request that the UK will consider this fact seriously and respond in a responsible manner to minimise any harmful effects on these businesses."
We have been informed of a variety of requests from Japanese businesses operating in the UK and the EU that include clarity as to how the Brexit process is set to unfold")

This is political v important. And makes a good case for compensation for Nissan if we leave the single market and they become subject to tariffs to Europe. Chimes with the Tory manifesto pledge to protect business interests in the single market too.

Wall Street Journal reporting a Johnson gaff:
www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-s-future-eu-ties-arent-a-matter-of-black-vs-white-1475185788
Boris Johnson, Britain’s new foreign secretary, visited Turkey this week and declared that preparatory work could begin “for what I hope will be a new jumbo free-trade deal between the U.K. and Turkey.”
In fact, until Prime Minister Theresa May decides what kind of relationship the U.K. intends to seek with the EU after Brexit, there aren’t many things about Britain’s future trading relationships that can be said with certainty.
But one is this: The U.K. won’t have a jumbo free-trade deal with Turkey after it leaves the EU. In fact, it won’t have even a tiny deal to reduce tariffs, because Ankara is part of the EU’s customs union, whose members share a common tariff schedule. That means Turkey isn’t free to negotiate independent deals for trade in goods, and would essentially have to accept any such deal the EU reaches with the U.K.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/in-its-battle-for-brexit-the-government-is-bringing-a-knife-to-t/
Torygraphy piece on choice of lawyer for the government defending a50.

Can we start praying for another Sun editorial...

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 12:50

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37508968
Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'

There is someone in the article making the observation about a divide around the age 35 mark. I think I've stated the same on these threads before. Its interesting to see it repeated.

I still think it funny how majority of young people want Europe despite this.

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tiggytape · 30/09/2016 13:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 14:13

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 12m
12 minutes ago

On a general election before 2020:
Support: 36%
Oppose: 46%
(via YouGov)

OP posts:
ManonLescaut · 30/09/2016 14:35

Has this article been posted: Guardian: UK heading for hard Brexit say European diplomats

Following on from Fox's speech.

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 15:01

The Telegraph have written a lovely delusional piece about Brexit.
Entitled 100 reasons why Brexit is good they have done a video for it.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/30/100-reasons-to-embrace-brexit/
For its pure comedy value I have written down all 100 reasons on the list for you to read and weep at.

Enjoy!

  1. Control our borders
  2. Fewer unskilled Europeans
  3. More Indian doctors
  4. No more MEPs
  5. No fish quotas
  6. Boost English wine
  7. Set our own taxes
  8. Make our own laws
  9. No meat quotas
  10. No more trainer tariff
  11. Cheap tennis balls
  12. Keep paper driving licences
  13. Immigration on our terms
  14. New hangover cures
  15. EU’s poor economy
  16. Powerful vacuums
  17. Cheaper food
  18. Easier trade deals
  19. Take back North Sea
  20. Still in Eurovision
  21. No tampon tax
  22. Stronger commonwealth ties
  23. Old fashioned lightbulbs
  24. No more EU elections
  25. End working time directives
  26. Develop GM foods
  27. Drop green targets
  28. No more wind farms
  29. Support UK steel
  30. Blue passports
  31. UK passport lane
  32. No fridge red tape
  33. Pounds and ounces
  34. Straight bananas
  35. Crooked cucumbers
  36. Small kiwi fruits
  37. No EU landfill rules
  38. Stop EU criminals
  39. No EU flags in UK
  40. UK speaks for itself
  41. Free up builders
  42. Sensible farm subsidies
  43. Fewer chemicals restrictions
  44. High heat toasters
  45. Kent Champagne
  46. Small business freedom
  47. No olive oil bans
  48. No Turkey EU worries
  49. No MEP allowances
  50. No clinical trials red tape
  51. No kettle restrictions
  52. No EU army
  53. No EU foreign aid
  54. No internet cookies messages
  55. Stop EU child benefits
  56. Less EU X-Factor (as in the tv show)
  57. Ditto with BGT
  58. India trade deal
  59. Australia trade deal
  60. Treaty with China
  61. New staffing freedoms
  62. No EU bail outs
  63. Set own fishing policy…
  64. …so foreign boats are banned
  65. British fisher-men thrive
  66. Bye European Commision
  67. Farewell EU judges
  68. British judges rule
  69. A more British EPL (football)
  70. Non-regulated ports
  71. No butter mountains
  72. UK art market boom
  73. Dredging allowed
  74. EU citizens pay for NHS
  75. New vocabulary
  76. Keep our UN seat
  77. Not ‘EU citizens’
  78. No EU human rights laws
  79. Juncker will be sad
  80. Herbal remedy boost
  81. Others will follow and leave the EU
  82. Proper weedkiller
  83. Better English team (football)
  84. Ban animal imports
  85. EU students pay their way
  86. No Eurocrats’ salaries
  87. High-powered hairdryers
  88. She would’ve wanted it (Mrs Thatcher)
  89. No EU threats to jobs
  90. Cheaper to export goods
  91. Find criminals online
  92. No diabetic drivers ban
  93. Allister Heath is happy
  94. Boost exports
  95. Treaty with USA
  96. MPs can’t blame EU
  97. Cheap driving insurance for women
  98. No £13bn membership
  99. Proud nation again
  100. We voted for it…
OP posts:
PattyPenguin · 30/09/2016 15:06

I can't access it because I'm hopeless at managing cookies (don't want to delete them all) but the Financial Times has an article headlined "Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit" by Martin Wolf, the paper's chief economics commentator.

Scientists for the EU on Facebook quotes part of it:
""Britain is not a world-beating economy." It's not even Europe-beating. Further, its economic problems are nothing to do with limitation by the EU. They are to do with the UK's own impoverished investment, infrastructure and productivity. These would only be exacerbated by Brexit. What's holding us back is lack of investment into a more productive economy... from our education to deprived regions. But rather than fixing our own internal workings, our Brexit solution appears to be de-regulate everything and open the floodgates to cheap products that would undercut our own. We need to invest. The Brexit focus on trade is like a gardener who leaves his potted plants withering in the sun for two years whilst going round the world asking people if they want plants."

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 15:43

If you aren't crying after this, then his might might you cry. Its a critique of the governments a50 royal prerogative defence.

Rather depressingly, it thinks it might win.

publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/09/30/the-governments-case-in-the-article-50-litigation-a-critique/
The essence of the Government’s case concerning the interaction of legislation and the prerogative is, in my view, sound. Against that background, it is surprising, to say the least, to find that core case so heavily obscured by arguments that are not merely peripheral, but weak verging on absurd.

If the government win a50 ruling, it WILL be Hard Brexit imho.

Here's some stuff on the position of the Channel Islands (who were not eligible to vote in the referendum since they are not part of the EU, but their status is, in effect, reliant on UK status, so its not clear if this will be affected):

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

Protocol 3, UK accession Treaty: Channel Islands are indisputably OUT of EU. No free movement... But in customs union
Here's how the Channel Islands authorities describe relationship - essentially IN the Single Market for Goods, OUT for all other purposes
The formal relationship between the Channel Islands and the EU is enshrined in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty, and confirmed in what is now Article 355 (5) (c) of the EU Treaties. Under Protocol 3, the Islands are part of the Customs Union and are essentially within the Single Market for the purposes of trade in goods, but are third countries (ie outside the EU) in all other aspects. However the Channel Islands have a close relationship with the EU in many different fields, not simply those covered by the formal relationship under Protocol 3, as this note explains. Both Jersey and Guernsey voluntarily implement appropriate EU legislation or apply the international standards on which they are based
More from CI - Goods export count as intra-EU trade, But exempt from VAT directive (solar, tampons etc). Opt-ins for specified EU laws
Outside the CAP and the Common Fisheries Policy (what Farage told me was his acid test for Brexit) ... But clearly affected by EU policy
The Channel Islands are outside the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP); they do not pay into nor receive funds from the EU budget. Similarly EU fisheries conservation measure under the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) do not apply directly to the Channel Islands under Protocol 3 and the Channel Islands do not pay into or receive money from the EU (or UK) budget, including the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund - EMFF. However Regulation 706/73 imposes certain constraints on the Channel Islands' own systems of agricultural support; state aid for exports of certain agricultural products to Member States and to non-EU countries may not exceed the relevant aid, refund or compensatory amount permitted to be granted by the UK under the respective EU rules. Although outside the CAP, the Channel Island are indirectly influenced by it and the rural development programme in each Balliwick is consistent with the direction of travel of CAP reform. For example agricultural support in both Guernsey and Jersey has been 'decoupled' from production for several years No obligation to follow competition and investment law, but EU "sets global standard" so CI follows anyway
In environment and transport, no obligation to abide by EU law or regulations - but basically does anyway. With no influence on them
energy - Protocol 3 specific opt-in for C. Islands to Euratom, given proximity of French nuke power. Telecoms - own regs, no cheap roaming
And fascinating precedent on migration - visa free holiday travel for EU. Immigration policy has to treat all EU nationals (incl UK) same
full Channel Islands document on its third party relationship out of EU, already catered for in Treaty...
Document Islam is quoting from in full here
If SNP seeking to cause mischief, could suggest England & Wales join Channel Islands out, Scotland/NI stay in EU !
Channel Islands precedent - control over FoM, laws, VAT (i.e. key Vote Leave asks) full single market goods access. poss diff EU-Scot deal
Andorra in the customs union, outside EU, outside CAP - sounds similar. So one of four freedoms. In practice, abides by a lot of EU regs

AoP/Thomas Widmann @arcofprosperity
@faisalislam I guess that's what many Brexiteers want. But it doesn't look likely that rEU will be willing to expand this to UK.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Yes but it provides a rough guide to quid pro quo for full goods single market freedoms

[RTB NOTE: The trouble with all this is the EU would still have to agree this. And Spain won't want to do something that might lead to part of the country declaring independence if they have a means by which they might be able to still enjoy the privileges of the EU as independence in Scotland was in part held back by the threat that this would endanger its EU status. Spain's position on Gibraltar also causes problems. Its also hardly 'taking back control' if we still end up following EU rules we don't set. Can we just export Farage to the Channel Islands please, since this appears to be the model he wants?]

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 30/09/2016 16:12

I'm amazed that the blogger thinks the government has a good case - do you think he is deliberately taking a controversial stance?

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2016 16:19

I don't know.

He seems to know his stuff. But there are plenty of lawyers who think to the contrary.

The worry is that if he thinks this, then the judge presiding over the case could feel the same, even if it looks like the governments case is dumb due to all the bits that are, well dumb.

Perhaps the dumb bits are a distraction to try and stop people thinking the government have a good case, and the hope is they will focus all their attention on those bits rather than the bits that apparently have merit.

It is the only critique I've seen that is favourable to the government though. I can only hope its written with Brexit Blinkers firmly on.

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Nightofthetentacle · 30/09/2016 16:42

Faisal Islam is on twitter fire (obvs not literally) at the moment, I really loved those tweets on the historical politicking and diplomacy that had got us to the Japanese letter and Nissan's recent public statements.

He did say today though that we are heading for hard Brexit. I think it is almost gin/vodka time again...

TheElementsSong · 30/09/2016 16:47

High heat toasters? New vocabulary? Herbal remedies? Confused

Unicornsarelovely · 30/09/2016 16:50

It is important to remember that the A50 challenge will be dealt with at a hearing where the now revealed defence is the basic framework of what the govt will argue - it isn't the whole of the case although the important points will be included. It also shouldn't be word for word.

I would expect the govt barristers to make a significantly better case on their feet, and for it to be heavily led on the prerogative vs legislation.

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 16:57

That Telegraph list redefines barrel-scraping. You want to hope it is mostly tongue in cheek but

ManonLescaut · 30/09/2016 17:05

Clicked on the Telegraph list and it's fucking playing 'Jerusalem'.

I'm not sure 'boost exports' can be dismissed as tongue in cheek - it's just deluded.

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 17:28

Yougov polling on Brexit team.

Can't believe that many think Johnson is doing ok. Although, I suppose expectations were extremely low.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
merrymouse · 30/09/2016 17:52

paper driving licenses - we don't have paper car tax stickers any more so why would DVLA decide we need paper licenses? I'm assuming that is 'light hearted'.

drop green targets

Even if you think that is a good thing, I thought EU green targets were largely governed by international targets.

treaty with USA

Because....?

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 17:57

I still have a paper driving licence, because I haven't moved house for yonks, and am too mean to stump up for a new one with a photo.

Dirty beaches again? Bring it on I say, why be put off by swimming in sewage? It never did me any harm when I was a lass. Grin

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 18:01

Frankly the entire list reads like it was aimed at my mother, who still laments the loss of paper licences and blue passports, although she has neither, as she can't drive and last went abroad in 1977. Also bananas.

I don't understand the kiwi fruit point, but I think kiwis are the work of the devil anyway. Oh, and as I think I've said before, she still works in lbs/oz and works out how much things cost in 'real money', and gets annoyed when I don't understand the 'real money' even though I was born 6 years after decimalisation.

And she reads and believes the Daily Express, which I think says it all.

Because....? - because reasons. That seems to be about the strength of it!

Peregrina · 30/09/2016 18:13

Bathroom I am surprised that your mother isn't lamenting the driving licences which were little maroon books, which you had to renew every three years. Perhaps she is?

Let's bring back the war time identity cards too, whilst we are about it - blue for adults, buff for children, which expired when you were 16. DH still has his, born postwar, but when rationing was still in existence. Mine has been lost. Oh yes, let's have rationing too. My Mum always lamented the loss of dried eggs.

TheBathroomSink · 30/09/2016 18:36

pere - she probably is. She would have had an ID card, and she does often talk about ration books, but I have very selective hearing when she goes off on one. Luckily there are 6 counties between us, so it's mostly over the phone and she can't see me rolling my eyes or just not listening.

Nightofthetentacle · 30/09/2016 18:39

There was actually a good short piece in the Economist about nostalgia and how it has driven the rise in popularity (in Germany) of the very right wing basically nazis AfD

Here it is www.economist.com/news/europe/21706330-german-backwater-anti-immigrant-feeling-thrives-east-east

Nostalgia for East Germany even. Cripes!

PattyPenguin · 30/09/2016 18:41

I'd be fine it they brought back rationing. I have (most of the pages of) my mother's immediate post-war Harrod's cookery book, complete with recipes for whale meat and dried eggs and mock turtle soup and turnip cakes. OK, maybe the last one's an exaggeration.

We're not posh, BTW, I think it's just that she believed, when she got married without the slightest ability to cook, that she ought to get the best cookery book going.