LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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So now it's wrong to have too much information and that equals "over-investment" in surferjet's opinion

Sounds typical of the Leave campaign, where at best "experts" were ignored and at worst, plain distrusted.

Not saying that smallfox is necessarily an expert but surferjet's attitude is typical of the disdain with which any Remain supporter who backs up their opinions is met.

If they don't do what the majority voted for we'll decide what to do from there, (Surferjet)

But what did the majority vote for? This is the issue that many remain voters would like to understand. We know what the leave camp voted against (EU membership generally) but many of us believe that there is no clear vision of what they were voting for. From what I've read and understood 'Brexit' means something different to every leave voter.

"it's given legitimacy to racist views"

"The racists are rubbing their hands with smug glee at 'winning' right now."

"they're all over social media celebrating about how at last they can get rid of foreigners and take their country back."

But all of these things are true (and continuing) and many of us really can't get our heads around the reasons why people would choose to ally themselves with racists when they are not themselves racist.

I disagree that there has been widespread bullying. Unless you redefine bullying as "demanding that they explain themselves (preferably with graphs. links and definitive proof)". Why on earth wouldn't you want proof when somebody baldly asserts X, Y and Z? Again, unless you redefine over-invested as actually having "answers and facts".

Maybe I should try that approach the next time I participate in a seminar at work. I could just confidently declare that skin cancer is caused by listening to rock music, and when the audience ask to see my data, I can dismiss them with accusations of bullying, over-investment and negative-thinking.

surfer, If they don't do what the majority voted for we'll decide what to do from there

Who is 'we'? How will 'we' decide? Can you expand on 'Brexit means Brexit'?

And did a majority of Leave voters vote for the same thing? I have to ask because as far as I can make out, not even the top few politicians tasked with sorting out Brexit are talking about the same thing.

tiggy, those statements are all true; although I very much doubt you'd find anyone who really thinks all Leave voters were racist, it's legitimate to point out the context in which the campaign was run and that racism/xenophobia did indeed play a part in the vote.

What rough % of racists voted to Remain? Probably about 0%.

This is the link between comments regarding racist affiliations of Leave voters.

It doesn't necessarily imply 100% of Leave voters are racist, but there's an unpleasant correlation that's rather difficult to deny, and one that was leveraged to the max by much of the Leave campaign.

I think 4% of UKIP voted Remain. Now, not all of UKIP will be racist, but it's a fair betting that it attracts a majority of racists. So maybe a hundred or so racists voted Remain?

You've got to wonder about the thinking of any UKIP supporter that voted Remain! Surely that was the whole point of UKIP!

^I'd like to know where smallfox gets her facts from, she seems way too over invested in this & has an answer for everything, almost as if she has a file full of potential replies. I know this is an extremely important event, but most ordinary people are just getting on with their lives now.
We've had the referendum - leave won. That's it. 'Brexit' is now in the hands of our politicians.^

THAT^^ is a complete abdication of responsibility and a lack of understanding of how politics in this country works.

It is hugely important that people understand how it really works otherwise power gets abused.

1. You can not be 'over invested' in politics. Why? Because it affects every affect of your life. You should be as invested as humanly possible. It is in effect, your public responsibility whether you realise it or not. You should never just lie down and accept what a politician says as gospel. It is your moral responsibility to question, and raise questions and concerns in the face of lies.
2. Politics in the UK is an ongoing dialogue between the public and politics. THATS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE SYSTEM WE HAVE. We have local representatives (clue there in the word) called MPs who convey our concerns back to parliament.
3. Brexit is actually in the hands of civil servants lead by politicians. Civil servants are unelected. Its up to the public and our elected representatives (known as opposition MPs) to keep an eye on the actions of these people and hold them accountable and make sure that what they are doing is kept in check and is in the best interests of the country as a whole.

I go frustrated that trying to explain things is viewed as 'bullying; in anyway. Its not. If you feel like you are being treated as stupid that says more about a deep insecurity rather than something about people trying to help inform you. Suggesting it is bullying, is I'm afraid a silencing tactic, which can be deemed a bullying tactic in its own right.

It is important more than ever in the wake of Brexit that we understand politics, we are invested in politics and we hold people to account over Brexit. Please start understanding why this is crucial for ALL of us rather than sniping at people.

This is our future and your future.

At present the latest coming out of Whitehall, seems to be that the UK is headed for Hard Brexit which definitely is not what Remainers voted for, but nor is it want many Leavers voted for either. This means that a tiny, tiny percentage of people who voted to Leave are going to get what they want. Worse still the implications of this are that the pooerest are going to get hit hardest - in many cases the very people who voted for Brexit - and can least afford it.

This is NOT about who 'won' or 'lost' the referendum anymore. Its about how a tiny number of people are going to interpret something which had no clear boundaries or coherent message as they see fit, which may have very little resemblance to what people who voted FOR it thought, never mind those who voted against it.

SapphireStrange

There are quite a few pressure groups making sure Brexit really does mean Brexit.

& as for the racist thing. Let's just assume ( for arguments sake ) that every single person who voted leave is a racist. What would have changed if we'd voted remain? Would all these millions of racists suddenly have turned into Will Self?
If half this country is racist then it's time we found out why & did something about it.

Hi everyone,

We'd just like to remind everyone that it's not really on to speculate about other MNers who aren't around on the thread to defend themselves.

There are quite a few pressure groups making sure Brexit really does mean Brexit.

OK, surfer. Can you tell me about any of them? What they stand for? What they want from Brexit? Specifics, I mean, not just more 'Brexit means Brexit'.

And no, I don't assume and wouldn't argue even for argument's sake that 'every single person who voted leave is a racist', although as the truism would have it, every single racist voted leave.

But even though it's not the case that half the country is racist, I agree that yes it is time we did something about it. I'd actually suggest that, in a weird way, it is a positive aspect of the referendum (or at least an instructive one) that xenophobia and other forms of ignorance, resentment and fear have been brought out into the open.

It is just a great shame that it has taken this to make it happen. I'd argue that a truly progressive government, one that was genuinely invested in the country's good as opposed to their party's good or their own careers/reputations, would take this as a chance not to risk the country on a long and painful leaving process, but instead to find out more about the reasons why people feel resentful and angry and start addressing them.

On another note, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Red's last post.

Red what have you heard suggesting Westminster is leaning towards a Hard Brexit?

This is NOT about who 'won' or 'lost' the referendum anymore. Its about how a tiny number of people are going to interpret something which had no clear boundaries or coherent message as they see fit, which may have very little resemblance to what people who voted FOR it thought, never mind those who voted against it.

I think this is an important point.
Theresa May is supposed to have weighed up the pros and cons and decided in favour of Remain. My own MP was a Remainer. I have written to ask her that if the Hard Brexit wing of the Tory party wins, and Hard Brexit becomes the reality and she still believes that this was not in the best interests of the country, would she vote with her conscience or would she vote to support the Tory party? The same question would be pertinent for Theresa May but she's not my MP so I can't put the question to her.

I also asked my MP to clarify what was meant by Brexit means Brexit, because it's become a meaningless mantra.

I'm not really up to taking on Red.

But I won't be surprised if Theresa May goes for hard Brexit, she was never a convincing 'remainer' ( did she actually say anything? ) a bit like Corbyn, said he wanted to remain but I very much doubt it.

That's a pity, surfer; I would like to hear what you have to say to Red's refutation of the charge of bullying, particularly, but also your thoughts on how you feel you can/should engage with your/our politicians.

Can I reiterate my question to you as well? About what you and other Leavers want from Brexit?

Robert Peston made a facebook post last night about what May is supposedly thinking:

www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1675210406137031

There are numerous other reasons why this plan is a none starter, but the pillars of what Brexit will look like are worrying as they do seem to suggest a very strong leaning to abandoning the single market.

Which is actually against the Tories own manifesto pledge of 'protecting British interest in the single market'.

This really does highlight why we need to hold politicians accountable post Brexit.

There are many people who will have voted Tory AND Leave on the basis of maintaining the single market. There are also people who will have voted Tory AND Remain on the basis of maintaining the single market.

Not to mention the fact that, not all Leavers are the same, and not all Leavers wanted all three of those things. There were also people who wanted all of those things AND though this could be done with maintaining the single market and this was an essential part of the deal.

There is a clear democratic conflict here. A similar one to the direct conflicts of NI and Scotland.

It is frankly impossible not to 'betray' someone's democratic voice in Brexit. Purely because there was no clear goal laid out by Leave or Remain. Both should have defined what we were leaving FOR, rather than merely making a case against the bad bits of the EU and staging a vote against the bits people disliked.

Thus, we must make sure that what ever happens is in the best interests of the country as a whole and demonstrating that is what has been done properly, and why it has been done.

The referendum was advisory, and therefore it must be noted, that in a sense is secondary to those who voted for the clear Conservatives pledge even though more people voted in the referendum especially because Leave didn't have a clear definition of what they were aiming for in Leaving too.

And yet, here we have the Tories seemingly looking to through that out the window.

Accountability. Accountability. Accountability. It can not be over stressed.

We NEED to be 'overly invested'.

Our posts crossed surferjet but she said she made lists of pros and cons.
I suspect that Corbyn speaks for quite a lot of Remainers: 7.5/10 sounds about right - the EU is not perfect but it's better than the alternatives on offer.

What the Leavers of the Hard Brexit persuasion want appears to be pie in the sky.

surferjet Wed 17-Aug-16 12:58:46
I'm not really up to taking on Red.

Why not?
Its a hugely important issue.
Please, I want to here what you think. People should be able to stand by what they say and explain it or to accept that what they have said is flawed and that others might have a point that they hadn't previously considered.

Otherwise we will get nowhere in Brexit and building a future for us all where your interests are represented AS WELL AS mine, and everyone else on this thread to the fullest possible extent rather than it just being about isolated groups in society benefitting at the expense of others.

Which is actually against the Tories own manifesto pledge of 'protecting British interest in the single market'.

Yes indeed. I also reminded my MP of this. Note though that 'protecting British interest in the single market' does not say 'Remain in the single market'. It sounds much like the BoJo, Gisela Stuart, Daniel Hannan and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all's claim that we will Leave the EU but we will still retain all the benefits.

The brexit lite thing has been discussed in many places. It's mainly due to the fact that in order to remain having our strong trading position within the EU we will have to accept concessions.

As for my facts, hardly dubious, would you like me to post links and harvest reference everything. I'm an economic PhD so it's not hard.

I'd counter that my facts and position are far more defensible than those posted by many leave voters.

Oh and as for verbally bashing? I certainly don't think I close down debate, maybe if you can't defend your position yeah, but isn't that part of debate?