LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

Click this link to view the response online:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

This petition has over 100,000 signatures. The Petitions Committee will consider it for a debate. They can also gather further evidence and press the government for action.

The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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whatwouldrondo yes yes to everything you say, I agree 100%.
The Tories are so deeply devious that this Brexit thing was just a political manoeuvre, very perverse in fact, they gambled and never expected to lose the Remain vote.
Yes to appealing to people's fears about immigration, inflating it out of all proportion, and to also using the campaign to appeal to people's emotions/resentment about austerity/NHS/education/jobs/housing and whatever else they hanker after which is long gone with the "empire glories" of previous centuries... and frankly has very little to do with being part of the EU.

The demographics of the voters tell the story. Judging by the Guardian article a common theme in Europe, and indeed America to some extent with the Trump BS going on there...

The young are taking full advantage of the hyper connected globalised reality ...they understand the dynamics of the world they live in and the potential and opportunity it offers, hence the majority voting Remain.. and "their" world bears no resemblance whatsoever to their parents/grandparents misguided and obsolete beliefs.

I don't think it's quite as easy moving to Paris or Madrid as moving to Preston. DD has done so, and there were a number of hoops to get through - getting the equivalent of a Nat Insurance number was one. Then there can be problems with opening bank accounts. But still, it's much easier than trying to get into Australia, or the US.

Otherwise yes, if you find that you can move to another country with minimum fuss, or one which requires reams of paperwork, or getting sponsors, or paying a hefty fee, then most will go for the former.

Denying that immigration was the main issue is the leavers mantra, but it was and is the reason why they find it so hard to justify it.

You are quite right Peregrina, obviously it is going to be some formalities, but nothing that people cannot prepare for beforehand by doing a bit of research.

*there are (must preview)

How very interesting figment enjoy the talk! And that puts paid to the notion of grape picking in France in the not so distant future!

smallfox as a foreigner I am left in no doubt as to the real reasons for this Leave vote: Immigration is the one and only reason aside from a mass delusion of grandeur and hankering after a past that by its very nature, being in the past tense, can never return

But corcory and surfer and the other lady who earlier on challenged me stating my facts were wrong when I said the old have robbed the young of their future...please forgive my deep scepticism...maybe Brexiteers can still explain their "vision" for the future.

Peregrina yes there are a few forms to fill, and things to organise, but honestly it is not that complicated to move to another Eu country right now. I believe the biggest barrier that UK nationals face when considering moving within the EU (assuming free movement of course) is that Brits are (in general) not very good at speaking other languages...which limits them sometimes in the type of work they can do. Again, talking about non retirees, just average Joe Bloggs with average blue or white collar skills and his family... what is actually surprising and a credit to the European countries is that so many EU employers will even consider employing a non local language speaker if the skills are needed as there are plenty of well qualified applicants they can choose from. With very few exceptions even the lowest skilled Eu migrants into the UK can defend themselves in English.

We have had free trade with other countries and it hasn't meant freedom of movement.

But (as has been said more than once), EU freedom of movement is RECIPROCAL. How do you feel about British people facing greater barriers to getting work in the rest of the (current) EU in the event of us relinquishing this?

And (again, others have said it), the nature of EU trade is not the same as the nature of trade we have with any other country; it's much easier within the EU. Bearing in mind the UK's size, geographical location and the goods we can offer, do you think Korea, China, whoever else, will a) want our stuff that much and b) be dying to give us the best possible deal for us?

And no I won't be 'showing you my workings out'!! You are frustrated with people continuing to press you for responses, but you don't supply evidence for your opinions.

you say that people would not want to have to jump through hoops in order to come here but they do every day when applying for loads of other countries.

A doctor from (e.g.) Lithuania and a factory worker from (e.g.) Spain, faced with the choice of jumping through hoops to come to the UK, or moving much more smoothly to (e.g.) Germany, will likely pick the latter. The UK will be down one doctor and one factory worker. Who loses?

Many of us have lives and other things to do so don't always have time to sit in front of a computer all day.

We all have other things to do; there's no need at all for the snark. It is interesting that both you and surfer, the arch-Leavers here, are happy to spend time treating us to groundless statements and soundbites about unelected bureaucrats and the EU army; but whenever you're challenged to come up with some backing and/or the conversation goes somewhere you don't like, you're suddenly too busy and listing all the reasons why you can't possibly post on here at the moment.

I as well as everyone else is entitled to their opinion See above about groundless assertions.

very little can be said that is factual as Brexit hasn't happened yet. Sadly, despite having tried my damnedest to understand Leavers' points of view and reasons for voting as they did, I have yet to hear or read anything that makes me think that anything much that was factual came into their thinking when they were voting for the damn thing.

No, not too difficult- DD was a bit blase when she went but did get herself sorted out and landed a better job than she had in the UK. By contrast a friend of my own age trying to get work in Germany in the early 70s sometime, just gave up in the end because he got fed up with the paperwork. I think he secured a job, but couldn't get the residence permit.

It's the greatest pity that the arch Leavers aren't badgering their MPs about the broken promises. They seem strangely quiet.

Have you noticed when they get put under pressure to answer they say they are too busy, then pop up later and still don't answer

I didn't start this thread to spend huge amounts of my time arguing with remainers. If I'd wanted a 'debate' I'd have asked for one in the thread title. As you can see, the title of this thread has 'leavers' in big fucking capitals. I was updating them on the A50 petition, I wasn't asking for a debate with you lot. However, I'm one of the few leavers who has stuck around to answer your interrogation, everyone else fucked off weeks ago, & who can blame them?
I don't have to answer to you or anyone. My reasons for voting leave are none of your damn business quite honestly. & as for expecting me to know the ins & outs of a ducks arse regarding all things EU, you're just being ridiculous - no average person is going to know what you're expecting ( I think you forget you're on mumsnet btw - the home of penis beaker & monkey wanking )

I've tried with you lot I really have, & I've tried to understand your frustrations. But this is just getting silly isn't it. I'm just one out of the 17 million people who voted leave - it really is time to drop this & move on. & I don't mean to sound patronising here, but I hope you eventually find peace.

I hope you eventually find peace. Sorry but that has made me .

surfer, we're all 'average people' here, in the sense that we can all demonstrably read, write and understand some basic political and economic issues.

My reasons for voting leave are none of your damn business quite honestly.
It's not so much that that people have been asking you; it's what do you want to happen/see happening now.

I and lots of other posters have tried to understand you too. Why else have we been asking for clarification, sometimes more than once, on the things you say?

I still believe that you DO see that statements like 'remainers are people who find it difficult to identify as British' and 'Leaving the EU will give us more control. That is a fact, or at least that's what we voted for.' do not stand up to much scrutiny and need more unpacking.

I do find it interesting that your tone gets more defiant/rude when people ask you to expand on your opinions with some kind of grounds.

surferjet Does it bother you that so many leave promises were shown to be false, and that others were reneged on within hours?

"I didn't start this thread to spend huge amounts of my time arguing with remainers."

Maybe not. But given that the thread was about petitioning for a course of action that looks to be massively damaging to all of us and to our children, you can't be surprised that people want you to, at the very least, explain your reasoning.

Hyacinth - I haven't imagined that the proportion of people coming in who are non EU citizens with EU spouses would be very big as I don't know any Polish people with non E.U. spouses. And yes I do feel that immigration into the UK should reflect as much as it can the ethnic diversity of the globe. And no I won't be 'showing you my workings out'!!

It's hard not to jump to the conclusion that you won't be showing us your workings out because you don't have any. And did you seriously just say that you don't think the number of EU nationals with EU spouses (and why have you restricted family members to spouses anyway) isn't very high because you personally haven't met any Poles with non-EU spouses?! Like, has it not occurred to you that there might be other countries in the EU other than Poland?

You haven't actually answered anything Surfer.

You've emphasises restricting FOM but you can't explain what trade model that would work with, or what the economic consequences would be.

Posters have only asked of you a very basic grasp of the way the EU functions, and if you don't know and can't be bothered to find out, then you shouldn't have been voting on this issue. It's a very good example of why putting this question to the populace was the biggest political folly of my lifetime.

You can patronise us all you like with 'peace'. But you will be affected as much as everyone else by the negative consequences of this vote, the difference being that most people here have an idea of what's coming whereas to you it will be a surprise.

it really is time to drop this and move on

This sums up the root of the problem for me.

Leave voters such as corcory and surfer genuinely don't think they had any responsibility other than voting Yes or No.

As far as they're concerned it is over now.

It is simply pointless continuing a discussion with any who is so fucking naive that they think we should 'drop it and move on'.

It would be tolerable if 'moving on' actually involved discussions on what that looked like, what it involved and how it could be achieved but it doesn't, it's literally close your eyes and forget about it.

Surfer said weeks ago that she had no idea what was going to happen next, but she was "walking on air" because of the Leave vote, and "trusted our leaders" to make sure nothing detrimental happened. She is one of the "change for changes sake" group.

It's a very good example of why putting this question to the populace was the biggest political folly of my lifetime.

Yep.

And the thread is nearly full OP and you STILL haven't explained your reasoning or how you see this all playing out. How do you perceive the immediate BREXIT you are so keen on working?

I suspect that some Leave voters did not like being lied to, but are too embarrassed to say so.

But if you are one of the 'trust our leaders' school, why bother to get upset about the EU? Our dear leaders are capable of sorting it all out.

So it's confirmed. No idea why they voted for, or what the future might bring, but responded to vague and meaningless statements about control, yet both identify freedom of.movement as a major reason, yet can't really justify why.

You two are a great advert for the leave vote aren't you.

This is reminding me of one of the women on R4s Brexit St last week: she didn't like the immigrants and thought we'd get the money for the NHs, and all the usual delusional stuff ... And she said 'on the morning after, I didn't think to look at the news cos I didn't really think about it. And then someone said, oh Leave won, and I thought oh good'.

I doubt she's the only leave voter who thought this was some kind of general whinge against everything, voted us all out and not only didn't give a moments thought to what would happen next, but didn't even care enough to check! This is what makes people able to talk about getting over it, pulling together, just seeing what happens, not being sore losers - I don't think they all realised how much it actually mattered or how much remainders actually care!

I hope you eventually find peace.

Wow that's a flippant remark with a hell of a lot of bitter irony for some.

Red, it's in the same family of comments as the lines about faceless bureaucrats, uncontrolled immigration, people who find it hard identifying as British etc that we've been treated to.

Meant to sound weighty, but in actual fact meaningless and trite.