LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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on the subject of EU and non EU immigration...
www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/08/these-4-maps-might-change-how-you-think-about-migration-in-europe/

Urkelina - interesting link

Still haven't got a good argument for hard brexit or stopping freedom of movement.

I mean really how hard can it be?

I've given you my thoughts Small but I can see that no matter what I say it will never be 'good enough' for you.

Why do people keep saying 'I'm not good enough'?

Corcory, I'm assuming you have a grasp of the issues around free movement/no free movement and access to/membership of the common market, etc. So why not talk about them? That's all anyone wants.

You say I want to see us get the best deal we can when it comes to trading with the EU. I want to see us try and go in hard and I certainly don't want anything like the Norway model.

So what do you see happening (or hope for)? And I guess you don't really want a full-on hard Brexit (if one defines that as concentrating on trade with other EU countries), if you want us to continue trading in some way with the EU.

Are you envisaging WTO rules?

Discuss...

can you not see your contradiction with the level playing field concept and the fact that non EU inmigration is higher than EU?

This is a bit like a female patient wanting her prostate out even though she doesn't have one...

I've given you my thoughts Small but I can see that no matter what I say it will never be 'good enough' for you.

There is a big difference between "thoughts" and reasoning or evidence.

Well it is reasoning I'm looking for.

You want freedom of movement stopped so that the playing field is level for everyone? But as pointed out British workers have reciprocal rights in EU countries, you say its "racist" to discriminate against those of other countries but fail to take this into consideration.

You then go on to make a point regarding EU workers coming stopping British young people getting trained up, which is essentially the "coming here taking our jobs" argument rehashed in a different way, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because in many sectors where trained EU nationals have taken roles, there are still shortages. Its a structural problem that has been well explained as a result of Britain's employment environment.

One of the things about both of your reasons for stopping freedom of movement would be that businesses would pass on the costs of these things, are you prepared to pay higher prices?

Still out of all this you can't explain, with critically explained reasons why you object to freedom of movement.

Oh and as you're in Scotland and one of your reasons prior to this was "laws being forced upon us", it did make me chuckle, just a little bit that despite a majority vote in Scotland to reamin, you are happy for Brexit to be forced upon the electorate there because "your" side won.

Democracy it seems, is only important to you if you think you are winning!

Ureklina - Nearly 90k of the non EU figures are people from China - by far the highest sector, much higher than the total migrants from India unlike your link suggested with it's summation that India was the main country immigrants to this country came from.
I would surmise that the vast majority of these Chinese people are students. I can't find any total student figures by country but in 2015 nearly 60k of the 90k were 1st year uni. students. I know that there is a considerable number of Chinese pupils in private schools here and I would suggest the remainder will be 2nd and 3rd and post grad. students. Obviously there are many other students from other countries and there were about 50k from the EU. So I really think we need to be looking at statistics that don't include students in order to make a fair comparison.

Small - I have always hoped that any UK citizen already in the EU will be able to stay there and that if we have a much less structured system of immigration controls then there can be a reciprocal system for our citizens.
In order to stop freedom of movement I would like to see people still coming if we have a need for them. So I see no need for there being shortages of labour.
I disagree with Freedom of Movement on principle. I do not agree with the use of people's freedom as a consequence of a free trade agreement.
Yes I am Scottish and I live in Scotland. I voted remain in the indy referendum and I voted leave in the EU referendum. I voted that way because I want to continue to stay in the UK but I want to leave the EU. The UK voted as a whole to leave the EU so that is what we have to do. You could use the same argument for people living in London who voted leave but the majority of people in London voted remain.

Corcory, as per my earlier post I'm very interested in what you DO envisage, trade-wise, if you want no freedom of movement.

Also, I'd be interested in your responses to points made by several posters about Britain's skills and training gap.

The article says that the maps are based on UN figures, they even include the latest influx of Syrian migrants as a separate figure so the numbers wouldn't be made up. Please link me to a government or other official source to contrast your data.

Ureklina - I got my figures from firstly the Office of National Statistics - Quarterly Migration report for the Chinese 90k figure and the Higher Education Statistics Agency for the student stats.

As far as I can make out, with the exception of Map 4, urkelina's link is calculated on the total number of immigrants (and their origins), not the number per year.

So I'm not surprised that India shows as the largest originating country in the UK. (I live in an area with a very high Indian-sub-continent population in Glasgow). I'd actually count in those stats as a foreign-born immigrant (not India white Commonwealth ) even though I've been naturalised British since childhood and self-identify as Scottish.

Me too Sapphire, I've asked so-called hard Brexiteers here for projected economic consequences of their plan, but answer comes there none.

Point taken on the yearly figure as you are quite right.

But I still cannot reconcile the level playing field concept with the fact the non EU immigration figure is higher than the EU one...

And thanks prettybird :)

My level playing field an analogy is to do with the fact that I think everyone should be treated the same. As for the amount of Non EU migrants. I don't think we should be counting students when comparing these figures as we would certainly want to continue having foreign students.
From the EU figs. you would have to take 50k but from the non EU figs. I would think you would have to take about 150k so that would put a completely different light on the whole migration figures.

Before agreeing with the idea that the EU v non-EU migration rules are racist because they favour white people, I'd want to see some evidence about what equal rules for skilled workers of any country would do to the ethnic composition of immigrants. Bear in mind that skilled workers from outside the EU may be white and EU immigrants (and their families, who don't necessarily have to even be EU citizens) may not be.

Hyacinth - I would think that anyone counter as an EU immigrant would have to be an EU passport holder thus an EU citizen.

The majority of EU migrants to the UK are from Eastern Europe and I don't see many black or ethnic minority Poles or Lithuanians.
The largest proportion of people out of the EU migrating to the UK are firstly Chinese - because there are loads of students from China and then there are Indian citizens of which 60k came to the UK last year.
Obviously we would still have people coming from the EU but the Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders are way way down the list so I really don't see how we are going to have a predominately white proportion of immigrants from non EU countries coming here.

" I would like to see people still coming if we have a need for them"

Which is what we currently have, and goes against your argument of people coming here and taking jobs so British firms/organisations don't have to train them.

Your arguments are incoherent, you come up with some spurious reasons about people being "white" etc, what you are doing as I've said before is to try to hide your own darker opinion behind reasonableness.

There are more non EU immigrants per year than there are EU immigrants under current rules.

"I don't think we should be counting students when comparing these figures as we would certainly want to continue having foreign students."

So if you do this, using your figures, nearly all of the non EU immigration was students and only about 100,000 people came in from the EU. Not an unmanageable number at all about 0.1% population increase. The horror.

"The majority of EU migrants to the UK are from Eastern Europe "

Ahh now we get to the crux of it Btw the Lativian etc populations are so small that they are minuscule, what you are mainly talking about is Poles.

Incoherent arguments based on naff all yet again, well nothing that I can publicly call on MN without you trying to get me banned.

Small - You are quite unbelievable aren't you. You have managed to suggest I am really a racist because I am hiding behind my reasonableness. Well that is just utter rubbish. I think the only person who is incoherent is you. The idea that I mentioned Latvians and Poles and because you feel the Latvian community is quite small then I must be anti Poles! We had a Latvian electrician here the other day that's why it came into my head.
And I seem to have incensed you so much that you can say 'nothing that I can publicly call on MN without you trying to get me banned'.
You definitely have a problem Small.

^
I've stopped reading & responding to that particular poster. I'm hoping the old theory that if you ignore them they might go away actually works.

It rather depends what you mean by 'as an EU immigrant' corcoran. If you just mean someone from the EU then yes they would have to be an EU citizen (though not necessarily a passport holder, an ID card legally suffices though an airline might require more).

But if you mean someone who is in the UK under EU law then no, absolutely not, not even close. EEA nationals working in other EEA countries are able to have their family members with them, regardless of whether those family members are EEA nationals or not. You are a British citizen could go and work in Germany and take your Nigerian spouse and kids with you, or a German citizen working in the UK could do the same. They would all be in the country under EU law, despite not being citizens themselves. This is why things like the residence card and family permit exist. They wouldn't need to otherwise. This is an incredibly significant point about EU migration law, indeed it's one that has been objected to by a number of people advocating Leave. You not knowing about this is a very good reason why we'll need a bit more in the way of receipts for your racism argument than you really not seeing.