LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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UK Government and Parliament

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How do you know that businesses aren't hiring EU nationals rather than train up British. I know a local bus company who advertised for trained drivers in Eastern Europe rather than training new drivers here. Wither they are being 'abandoned' or not Small I think we should be encouraging businesses to train as many of our young people as possible. As for the shortage we always seem to have of nurses and doctors then the same should apply. We should increase training places for all these professions and not just rely on people from other countries always being able to fill the posts. You are trying to make insinuations about my attitude which are wholly untrue.

How do you know that the bus company hadn't advertised here and been unable to fillocate positions? I know in the NE that this was the case for years.

I think we should be encouraging businesses to train as many of our young people as possible
So do I, but see the unwillingness of companies to train staff as evidence of their greed and unwillingness to invest in their workforce, rather than being the 'fault' of our membership of the EU.
Again - shortage of nurses - this government has just removed bursaries for trainee nurses and other HCPs. Why aren't they investing in this country's young people/the NHS? Bear in mind, we are one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
I find it incredible what people seek to blame on the EU, rather than look at the actions of our own government.

Corcory You are aware that the young doctors and nurses trained here are leaving the country because of the worsening working conditions in the NHS, this even before the crisis over Hunt's junior doctors contract which is causing many more to think of leaving. A family member left because in the five years after they qualified they went from caring for five critically ill patients to ten with only the added help of an untrained health assistant. They left because they felt that not only was the care they could provide compromised but it was inevitable that a patient would die as a result. There is no point training up workers and then subjecting them to ever worsening terms and conditions, as you tip the NHS into crisis in order to shrink it and leave the way open for private healthcare providers to move in. It is the same privatisation by the back door that we are seeing with schools - another area of state provision that has been thrown into crisis by government policy, not immigration.

I think we should be encouraging businesses to train as many of our young people as possible.

I quite agree. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the EU or immigration, and absolutely everything to do with the UK government not being willing to legislate and/or pay for that to happen.

I might add that their sibling, a qualified electrician has also left the country to work, in the EU.

I know the bus company hadn't advertised here as I know someone who works for them in admin. and does the placing of ads etc.
I am not saying the government is blameless for the situation we are in with regard to the NHS and I certainly don't agree that bursaries should be removed from nursing. It isn't the EU's fault. I didn't say that but I do want to see a change I the way things are done.
Perhaps the savings we will be making leaving the EU should be used in part, on increasing training places in the NHS and starting more apprenticeship schemes.

I would also add in another group that the government has invested in training, Science degrees are very expensive to run, and the government has actively been encouraging our young people to study STEM subjects in order to strengthen our capability in Science and Technology even further. Now as a direct result of Brexit, it literally happened overnight, opportunities here are drying up and they are looking overseas for their future. These are young people who understood what the EU meant for them, and voted to remain.

We should increase training places for all these professions

Absolutely. As everyone's pointed out (and , TBF, you've acknowledged), this is BUGGER ALL to do with the EU.

Perhaps the savings we will be making leaving the EU should be used in part, on increasing training places in the NHS and starting more apprenticeship schemes.

You are familiar with the Tories' ideology, aren't you? Do you genuinely believe this? (even if we WERE going to make any savings from leaving the EU, which is at best highly debatable).

Your latest arguments have not made me understand why you want an end to freedom of movement, or why you think it would benefit the UK.

I know a local bus company who advertised for trained drivers in Eastern Europe rather than training new drivers here.
Why didn't you ask them why they weren't advertising their training scheme? (Because they don't have one?) One reason given is 'Insurance is too expensive', so why aren't they pressing the insurance companies/government for some assistance here? As others say, companies have chosen not to invest in their staff, coupled with a deplorable attitude towards vocational education in this country.

Perhaps the savings we will be making leaving the EU should be used in part, on increasing training places in the NHS and starting more apprenticeship schemes.
Nice idea, but I think you will find that any spare money goes on paying Consultants from the big accounting and legal firms to try to implement Brexit. The NHS and Apprentiships will be at the back of the queue.

Peregrina - you forgot about the "savings" being used to fund tax cuts for the wealthy

After all, we're going to require lots of trickle down "growth" to compensate for the hit that our GDP is going to take

Corcory Another issue here for me is the way in which non EU immigration is administered, and quite possibly EU migration in future. As a result of the Tory government setting up immigration (along with the EU) as the scapegoat for the country's problems, and David Cameron has made it the issue it is in order to get elected, the process has become ever tougher and bureaucratic to the point that it is inhumane and counter productive. I know several talented working graduates who have gone through it, and a couple were married to British citizens. It is complex and multi staged, making even the slightest error, like misspelling a name, and the application is automatically rejected and you have to start again with a rejection on your record. In order to be sure of success you need help, either by paying the £7000 it costs for specialist advice, or via networks of existing immigrants who know the system. If you don't have £7000 or the networks then your chances are not good. Oh and when you marry your long term partner who is a British citizen you are allowed here for a set number of days and then have to return to your home country to apply...... For employers it has become a barrier to recruiting the best talent.

At the moment with free movement we have a system that has enabled labour to flow where it is needed whether it is farms or hospitals or banking. If the Home office get their hands on the immigration process for EU nationals I can see it becoming a bureaucratic nightmare and another barrier to economic growth and the provision of services like the NHS.

this government has just removed bursaries for trainee nurses and other HCPs.

Yes, because it is cheaper for the government to get foreign nurses for zero training costs.

Be it a points system, a needs system, or free movement, it's the government fault that not enough local people are trained.
Even better when the immigrants go with foreign money to train in the UK and end up staying there. Win-win for the government, lose-lose for the local population and the foreign countries that are, thus, effectively financing the UK.
While the locals blame the immigrants, instead of their own government.
That is why Cameron did a shit campaign for Remain. He wouldn't blame himself for the problems faced by the UK.

I'll say again - I want to stop freedom of movement from the EU as I think that everyone from any country should have the same rights to come here not just these in the EU.
Any time any leaver makes a suggestion as to what they would like to see then the answer is always sneering comments about the Conservative party/government. 'hollow laugh' from Sapphire - what a stupid person am I being a Tory voter and think that the government might invest in it's young people! Getting pretty sick of these condescending comments.

What - that's why I don't like the Australian system. I have a relative who has just married an Australian and is trying to settle in Australia. He has had to go through the exact same system in Australia as you describe.
I think there has to be a much less cumbersome way of getting people through the system and working. A new easier and faster system has to be thought of.

It has already been pointed out that the number of non EU migrants is higher than those from the EU... Don't know how much more levelled you want it to be.

Freedom of movement has nothing to do with lack of training in the UK. There's no incentive for businesses. to train up staff, nor a penalty for not doing it unlike in some other member states.

But what they are actually thinking of is a system that gets immigration down to the tens of thousands. That was the target TM failed to achieve by quite some margin even with the current counter productive draconian system for non EU immigration and she has now promised it will happen. I don't even want to imagine how they propose to do that, or the scale of illegal immigration / the black economy / exploitation that will result.

Even if they were actually promising a system responsive to economic need I would not trust them to be able to deliver a flexible efficient system that could achieve that.

And let's not forget the reciprocal rights that a fair amount of British people make good use of...

At least we have had a system in place that was responsive to economic need, for the EU at least. It kept the politicians and bureaucrats out of it.......

I want to stop freedom of movement from the EU as I think that everyone from any country should have the same rights to come here not just these in the EU.

But, as said earlier, the EU nationals get that right because UK nationals also get to go anywhere they like within the EU. It works well within a system of free trade (both of goods, money and people).

It doesn't happen with many other nations because there are no reciprocal agreements or free market agreements.

I think there has to be a much less cumbersome way of getting people through the system and working. A new easier and faster system has to be thought of.

Like free movement? Limited by market needs? Easier for migrants and cheaper for the government to administer?

What would you suggest?

I didn't say and don't think you're 'a stupid person' for being a Tory voter, Corcory.

Any time any leaver makes a suggestion as to what they would like to see then the answer is always sneering comments about the Conservative party/government

It's not sneering comments. Successive governments HAVE failed us in terms of education and training and general investment in our young people. Saying that is not being condescending.

What are your thoughts on the fact that the number of non-EU migrants is higher than those from the EU?

Successive governments have failed to invest in vocational training and it was just as much a problem with the Labour as the Tories.

""I think we should be encouraging businesses to train as many of our young people as possible"

There are structural reasons why UK employers tend to poach rather than train - i.e. steal other business's trained workers, rather than investing in training their own. These reasons have nothing to do with the EU, or freedom of movement, and are long-standing. They go back to the flexibility of our labour market.

The UK has always prided itself on labour market flexibility - i.e. the ability to hire and fire workers very quickly and cheaply - and it is certainly true that we are far "better" at doing this than, say, France or Germany. But this flexibility comes at a price - and in fact we've seen that with our "recovery" this time round. The UK has managed to create more jobs than the other EU member states, but if you look at the "quality" of those jobs, they tend to be low-skill and low wage, and require minimal training. Perfect for some elements of the migrant labour force (picking, packing etc) that people get most upset about.

Being able to fire your employees very quickly and cheaply tends to send employers down what labour economists call the "low road". In Germany, by contrast, in principle, for example, you can't make redundancies without the consent of the works council, worker voice is much stronger, and the quid pro quo is that workers have to be trained in useful deep skills - and to be willing to be retrained and redeployed across the enterprise to respond to change. It's not perfect, but the German government also provides a lot more subsidy to enable workers to be kept in work during difficult times. This is one of the structural reasons why, say Germany, or Sweden or Denmark, have ended up taking the "high road" - i.e. creating more high skilled jobs for more workers.

These longstanding structural issues are behind many of our current problems. The government is finally trying to resolve some of them, with its new focus on creating new apprenticeships - but even the planned new apprenticeship levy is encountering steep resistance from employers who want it deferred to take account of the cost and uncertainty resulting from Brexit.

These issues are never simple soundbites, unfortunately.