LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

Click this link to view the response online:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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What DO you want FFS? I've yet to see you say?
End freedom of movement and introduce a points based system. Not all countries in the EU are the same, so freedom of movement basically means people from less wealthy countries will flock to the richer ones. How many British people have gone to live & work in Poland? Or Greece? Or Hungary? Do you have figures?

End freedom of movement and introduce a points based system.

Why do you want that?

How will it benefit the UK?

Not all countries in the EU are the same, so freedom of movement basically means people from less wealthy countries will flock to the richer ones

And actually making them richer.

I want hard Brexit too. I want to see an end to freedom of movement for EU citizens and everyone wishing to enter this country being given a level playing field as far as entry requirements are concerned.
I want to see us get the best deal we can when it comes to trading with the EU. I want to see us try and go in hard and I certainly don't want anything like the Norway model.
So now I'm expecting to be told I am asking for unicorns and all the daft things that I always get if I give my view.

The EU has the better hand if we go in "hard".

Why do you both want to see an end to freedom of movement?

Oh and the use of the Fishing quota argument again?

Two things, we won't be able to fish any further than our fishing waters allow us to outside of the EU, and the quotas will remain in place.

We're not going to go back to the days where British fishermen fished in Norwegian, Sweedish and Icelandic waters.

Oh and our input into the rules on fishing would have been a lot higher if our representative on the committee actually bothered to turn up to the meetings, guess who?

Sadly, the 2 most prolific leave voters on this thread, surfer and corcory appear to have done nothing more than fuel the thought that the vote was racist and xenophobic.

I want to see an end to freedom of movement for EU citizens and everyone wishing to enter this country being given a level playing field as far as entry requirements are concerned.
I want to see us get the best deal we can when it comes to trading with the EU.

That is the selfish position. It would be nice if we could get all we want without giving anything back.

20% of UK fishing catch comes from outside our waters. Fish don't know about national boundaries.

May I ask the hard Brexiteers what they envisage the economic consequences of that to be?

Yes but we have rules governing where we can fish and in what waters.

Back in the heyday of British fishing we didn't have to follow any rules, well untill we lost the cod wars

Bear - What the F.... is racist and xenophobic about wanting a level playing field for everyone no mater where they come from and not discriminating against non EU citizens.
Have you not been reading my posts.

Also Lweji - Why on earth is me saying that I would like to see us get the best deal we can selfish!!!

Because to say "i want the same playing field" is an attempt to make it reasonable.

BTW There are already more immigrants per year from outside of the EU.

I want hard Brexit too. I want to see an end to freedom of movement for EU citizens and everyone wishing to enter this country being given a level playing field as far as entry requirements are concerned.
I want to see us get the best deal we can when it comes to trading with the EU.

OK, so fast forward 10-15 years. The EU immigrants have stopped coming so the NHS is short of staff. So - either the NHS has to cut back severely or they are replaced by other immigrants, most likely from Africa and the Indian sub-continent. Fine, this is what you want, but do all your fellow Brexiters want either of these options? I think not given the increased racist attacks directed at Muslims, and I think a relatively small number of EU migrants are Muslim.

Then also, in the agricultural areas, they can't get the staff to come to pick the crops, so the firms migrate elsewhere, and we need to import more food, at greater cost.

OK, then the EU says sorry, no dice. We gave you a good deal, and you threw it back in our faces, you have spent 40 odd years bellyaching, so you can trade with us on the same terms the rest of the world outside the EU. So cost of goods go up. Then Nissan and BMW say that it's no longer economic to have major facilities here so pull much of their business out.

Then the white commonwealth says 'why should we offer you good trade deals? You shafted us last time, we have now found new markets'. So no rushing to do deals with them.

Then the developing economies BRIC. Brazil at the moment is in trouble, Russia, well, that's a bit of a no-no, China we have just insulted, but India should be OK.

The Scots and Irish are P'd off, and may or may not go for Independence.

So you are part of a small impoverished island, which has trade but its expensive, many of the service industries have collapsed. So the tax revenues have collapsed.

You have taken back control, although you still have to abide by the regulations of the countries you wish to trade with, but have no say in their laws, so your sovereignity is a bit illusory. You won't have the easy whipping boy of the EU to complain about.

If that's the country you want - fine, but don't come complaining that it wasn't what you wanted.

Believe me cocory I've read your posts.

You've berated me here and on numerous threads for pointing out that Teresa may has said that she wants the rights of EU citizens to be reciprocally protected.

That doesn't intimate any kind of point based system, it implies business as usual yet you're now effectively saying you want to close the borders and only let the 'good uns' in.

What will this magical 'points based system' achieve?

Corcory
I quoted both aspects: wanting people out and the best deal possible. The best deals come with concessions.

The level playing field exists within the EU. UK citizens can come and go as they please, be it to live, on holiday, or even for medical treatment. The UK is free to allow anyone else they want in, particularly as they are not Schengen signatories, and to make reciprocal arrangements with other countries.

A points system is highly selfish. It allows highly skilled people trained elsewhere, often at the cost of another country, to cover areas where the state (in the UK) hasn't wanted to invest. Say, doctors and nurses for the NHS.
It is also highly unfair to UK citizens, who might want to train as doctors but who can't, when the state prefers to import ready made professionals.

So to say something that is an 'attempt to make it reasonable' means I am called a xenophobe and a racist!! This is just ridicules never said I wanted to 'reduce' the numbers of people coming in. I just want it to be more fair for everyone.

I didn't say I wanted a points system. So a points system is 'selfish' and the current freedom of movement isn't! Surely we are doing exactly what you are suggesting at the moment and using EU citizens, not only as doctors and nurses but also as plumbers and electricians at the detriment to the local youths who can't get an apprenticeship as any company can employ ready trained 'hard working ' staff with very little or no training costs. How is that helping the poorer countries? poaching all their trained people.

FFS corcory at least have the courage of your convictions.

Which part of everyone wishing to enter this country being given a level playing field as far as entry requirements are concerned implies you don't want a points based system?

I want to see an end to freedom of movement for EU citizens and everyone wishing to enter this country being given a level playing field as far as entry requirements are concerned.

So Corcory, no freedom of movement for EU citizens, but freedom of movement for others, or what? Given that immigration was a huge issue, although immigration from outside the EU is still the greater amount, how would you suggest controlling it?

How is that helping the poorer countries? poaching all their trained people.

It's not. I've posted about it before, particularly showing how immigration benefited the UK but not so much the countries of origin.

Yes, a fair playing field means either a points system or demonstrating that the employer can't find anyone else in the UK to fill the vacancy at the same level. In practice, it's fairly similar. And, in practice, this only works for the highest skilled jobs, pushing down citizens to lower level jobs when they can't get the training.
Open borders mean immigrants get in at all levels. They increase the workforce, but also create jobs, as they have to be housed, taught, treated, fed, dressed, etc.

Yes but we have rules governing where we can fish and in what waters.

Sure, but if we leave the EU and start getting arsey about our own waters (and marine policing would cost a helluva lot), then we could lose the right to fish outside ours.

Surfjet said 'points system'. I don't want freedom of movement for anybody and I don't necessarily want a system like that of Australia which seems to have it's flaws. I would like to see a system where we are able to ask any types of people, trained professionals to manual workers, what ever we need - but not at the detriment of training people in this country- to come to the UK. I have absolutely no problem what creed or colour the people are so don't try to insinuate that this is some kind of racist idea, because it's not.

You know immigration doesn't cause unemployment amongst domestic nationals? Also that in the areas where we have shortages of skilled workers those shortages still exist despite having freedom of movement? Plumbing, electricians, carpenters etc etc all have shortages.

See this is where your argument fails, British young people are not being abandoned in favour of hiring EU nationals who are already trained, it's a slightly more nuanced "coming here and taking our jobs" argumenthe dressed up reasonableness in a poor attempt at validation.

Corcory, it's not the case that 'the local youths' can't get an apprenticeship because of other EU citizens coming and working here instead.

And we don't currently have free EU movement 'at the detriment of training people in this country'.

This country has for a long time failed its own youth by not providing enough training and apprenticeships for skilled labour. Other EU nationals fill the gap created by our own lack of trained workforce and apprenticeship opportunities.

surfer, use of the word 'flock' is quite ill-advised in this context. Not a million miles away from 'swarm'.

Anyway: 'freedom of movement basically means people from less wealthy countries will flock to the richer ones. How many British people have gone to live & work in Poland? Or Greece? Or Hungary?'

As Lweji says, this makes wealthier countries richer.

Also, what goes around comes around. Do you remember Auf Wiedersehen, Pet? The UK is doing well now (for now...); in the 80s it wasn't doing so great and British workers had to 'flock' to Germany, which was wealthier, to make a decent living.

Interesting how the characters in that show were not portrayed as 'flocking' or 'swarming' or 'coming over to take all the Germans' jobs/benefits, isn't it? They were honest, hard-working working-class men just trying to make a living and keep their families.