LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

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corcory this isn't a goady question but a genuine one.

Has that made you question your choice?

NI also get a lot of EU money based on the peace process. Which of course is not now guaranteed by Brexit. They also disportionately get income from the rebate relating to their agriculture. Again not guaranteed.

The whole thing really does show up why at least SOME form of alternative to vote FOR needed to be part of the whole referendum preparation rather than it meaning being a vote on public dissatisfaction with the EU.

To my mind, I think that the UK were simply not in a position to offer Brexit to the public as a vote without discussing the issue with Ireland first because of this bi-lateral agreement. This is not an EU issue per say, but one regarding our relationship and diplomatic respect for Ireland. The whole point of the agreement was to ensure we discussed issues of such magnitude to NI with Ireland first.

It was complete arrogance by Westminster not to do so.

TooTiredToTidy - SapphireStrange -AntiqueSinger ~
Hi! - just catching up as haven't been online since my last post.
I don't really know what more to say tbh, I sadly haven't got a lot of time to spend on here. & it isn't a thread you can just post a few words & go, I do understand that & I'm sorry if you feel I'm not engaging enough ( trust me, I wish I had more spare time to spend on mumsnet! )
AntiqueSinger - thing is, for all the evidence the remain camp put forward, the leave camp come up with evidence to refute it, that's how politics work isn't it - just google something like 'pros & cons of leaving the EU' & you'll get 20 articles all weighing up the good & bad. All the points will make sense to someone, so it just boils down to personal feelings doesn't it?

I listened to the leave camp and agreed with pretty much everything they said, I just did, I can't explain why but what they were saying made perfect sense to me. & that's what politics is about, it's not just about the 'facts' - it's about feelings. How many people vote labour just because they can't stand the Tories? 1000's. & it's not because they agree with every word labour say, it's because they fear the alternative.
I weighed everything up, lots of what the remain camp said made sense, but equally so did lots of what 'vote leave' were saying.
I went with my heart - & I can't produce facts for that.
Look at what's happening with Jeremy Corbyn atm, he's becoming a cult figure for many whilst others see him as the death of labour - who's right?

that's what politics is about, it's not just about the 'facts' - it's about feelings.

I'd love to see a politician pass a law based on a gut feeling rather than have a solid policy and reason to also back up that feeling.

You need both.

Bear - It has certainly made me very baffled as to why DC didn't use it as a major flank in his argument for remain and as Red says why didn't they consult the Irish. I haven't changed my mind however on my vote however.

So we're pretty much back at 'that's not my monkey' aren't we corcory

Which bits of the leave campaign did you find made sense?

Genuine question, I listened to both and seriously couldn't take any of their claims or promises seriously

smallfox2002 - the financial implications. It made sense that leaving the EU would cause temporary uncertainty & some jobs may be under threat - but it wasn't enough to convince me to stay.
I'm not one for c&p'ing, but I really admire the MP Kate Hoey & she said this,
Labour MP Kate Hoey says the EU is "an attempt to replace the democratic power of the people with a permanent administration in the interests of big business
She summed it up perfectly.

Corcory, I'll take that as a start.

The question remains though, how the fuck do we now resolve the situation into something workable?

Personally, I think it will come down to the fact that we simply can not stop freedom of movement, no matter how much we want and if we are going to do that then we may as well 'concede' this as our 'compromise' to retain the single market.

Which really, really isn't going to be the result that a lot of Brexiteers will want.

Plus Ireland can not make a bilateral trade agreement with us without EU approval to that exception on the normal EU rules. The EU requires all rules on trade to apply equally to all members. Therefore if we go for something with a tariff or barrier of any kind, this also is a problem. We can not simply 'do whatever we like' in terms of sovereignty.

In effect we gave away an element of that sovereignty in making the compromise with Ireland that allowed us to make peace, and tied ourselves to Ireland of our own free will.

Unless someone can come up with an alternative solution that is going to satisfy the provisions of the GFA in some other way. I certainly can not think of something that does that. It took long enough to come up with this solution.

surfer can you explain how 'the democratic power of the people' is going to stop 'the interests of big business'

Sound bytes like that are nothing more than propaganda.

As pointed out up thread, the big businesses will lobby much more effectively to get their preffered choice, even if it's not their first choice, and that will beat 'the voice of the people'.

Did you really fall for shit like that?

Grr, lost a sentence.

If this thread is anything to go by, there is no 'voice of the people' because Leave all have their own dream of the future which compromises varying degrees of probability from maybe to fantasy.

Labour MP Kate Hoey says the EU is "an attempt to replace the democratic power of the people with a permanent administration in the interests of big business

I get this.

There is a categorical problem with it too though.

We now have a government with lots of businesses who have power lobbying government to protect their businesses and a government shit scared of a recession so are willing to give every concession going to big business to retain it in the UK.

Many of the government are particularly anti-regulation and workers rights in order to achieve this.

The situation that may result is the UK is EVEN MORE beholden to business and the interests of big business than the EU itself.

In terms of this, you need to start stating very clearly that one of the things you voted FOR was to stop big business controlling the agenda of government over and above the public interest and that the economic needs of the country must be more balanced with the needs of workers.

May is already showing signs that she will not do this despite her nice words on the day she took office.

Hold her to this. Make the noises about what you WANT and the logic and reason behind it. Start turning what you believe into something a bit more solid.

The NI situation wasn't mentioned all that prominently, and you would be disingenuous to make out like it was a major reason for many remain votes.

For me it was certainly a big reason.

I saw a headline in the Daily Express bigging up a rapid exit from the EU, but I think that the Good Friday Agreement could potentially be the big deal breaker. Much more than Scotland. I think TM will gamble on the Scots not winning a second Referendum for Independence. Even on that issue, since it affects the rest of the UK, shouldn't we be asked if we want to see the break up of the UK?

Leave voters keep saying that they made their decision based on huge amounts of research, and fact finding and reading and mulling things over and looking at all the pros and cons. Then they say "Oh, I didn't think about Nothern Ireland". And then they get cross when anyone suggests that it many not have been the best thought out decision anyone's ever made.........

As pointed out up thread, the big businesses will lobby much more effectively to get their preffered choice, even if it's not their first choice, and that will beat 'the voice of the people
Well that should worry all of us shouldn't it. If we get ttip we'll all be on zero hour contracts at minimum wage, that's what they want! Slave labour.
& if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would have been guaranteed. How lovely.

The permanent thing is totally untrue too. It's a way of misrepresenting the way the EU works.

Interests of big business? Don't make me laugh the EU does more to regulate businesa than we would.

Thing is with temporary uncertainty is that you have no idea what deal we will get from the EU. We could be permanently be putting the UK interests at risk.

Oh and don't bring up ttip, it was no way guaranteed and the EU is able to negotiate far more preferential deals than the UK would be able to alone.

TTIP was another example of the leave side adopting positions for political expediency, not because they ever had any interest in defending the UK. You realise Boris Johnson, liam fox, David Davis etc are all highly in favour of it?

if we get ttip we'll all be on zero hour contracts at minimum wage, that's what they want! Slave labour. & if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would have been guaranteed

And your basis for that statement is what?

Individual MP's are not as powerful as the entire EU smallfox, & if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would definitely have been forced on us. You are burying your head in the sand over this & I can't think why?
Why do you want the people of this country on crap deals?

Well that should worry all of us shouldn't it.

we'll all be on zero hour contracts at minimum wage, that's what they want! Slave labour.

Yes. This is common ground between many Leave and Remain people.

& if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would have been guaranteed. How lovely.
Nope, TTIP is almost dead and buried for reasons both in the EU and in the USA.

In fact we are MORE LIKELY to get a TTIP type agreement outside the EU on a bilateral basis than in it. Only we'll have worse terms.

Like I say, you need to be VERY clear about you want to get out of Brexit in a positive way and back it up with the substance for that rather than it just being a wish list.

if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would definitely have been forced on us.

Says who?

Really, what is the source of this assertion?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ttip-brexit-uk-steroids-disastrous-global-justice-now-war-on-want-a7099986.html
The quickest link I can find on the subject - note the date is post referendum on the article.

The discussion about the future of TTIP in the UK is not done even with Brexit.

"if we'd stayed in the EU ttip would definitely have been forced on us."

No, we can veto it, and there is far more political pressure in France and Germany for this than there is here.

As I said, the three people in charge of Brexit and negotiating our new trade deals are far more in favour of it.

"Why do you want the people of this country on crap deals?"

I don't which is why I'd prefer to negotiate international trade deals with the EU that has an extremely strong hand, rather than on our own, where we don't.

Voting for Brexit means more crap deals for our people, not the opposite.

We are going to get a lot of crap deals, if people make petitions saying 'invoke a50 NOW' because there will be more political pressure to make deals quickly rather than thoroughly and ensuring that they are really in our best interests because they will rush it and make mistakes.

If we'd agreed to stay in the EU they'd have thrown anything at us, ttip being just one of them. The US have been in talks with the EU for a few years now ( most of the talks held in secret I must add....hmm, I wonder why? ) it was coming & we should have been worried. But now we're out we have some hope at least, but agree, we can never be complacent.